All of the issues I raised have been corrected for months.
Strange turntable/speaker issue
OK, this is going to be lengthy, but here goes....
I have a feeling someone else has experienced this, and want to get some advice in how to correct this issue.
Some background; I could not keep myself from wondering just how good the old vinyl I had boxed up for years would sound compared to my digital set-up, which sounds pretty good to me right now. But, out of curiosity, I finally dragged up my old turntable that has been stored in my basement for 15 years (since I moved in), and probably have not used it in at least 25-30 years total. Originally purchased in the mid 70’s, it is a basic Kenwood KD-2055 with the heavy composite ‘granite’ base. After getting it set-up, I realized very quickly the old Ortofon OM 5E cartridge I installed in the mid-80’s was not going to ‘cut it’, and could not compete with my CD’s, files, or streaming set-up. So, after doing a bit of research, and not knowing yet if going back to some vinyl listening would stick, I purchased a Grado Premier Red, mounted it in the shell, set it up, and yes, it is a vast improvement. Much better overall dynamic range, soundstage, imaging, etc. than the Ortofon 5E. I thought to myself, ‘this may just work’. But, as I was checking some things out, I realized my Vandersteen 2CE’s were actually moving quite a bit (volume was a bit high, but not overly so). That is no easy task. I got back behind the Vandy’s and the rear 10” acoustic coupler was actually moving in and out at a fairly rapid speed, thus causing the speakers to actually move on the anchor stands quite noticeably. Now, this was not really effecting the sound, or creating sound in and of itself, but it can’t be good. First thing I thought was I had misconnected the cartridge leads at the shell, so double checked, and they are connected as per the Grado instructions. BTW, this could have been happening with the old Ortofon as well, but I may not have noticed. Overall, while playing music, the turntable also seems highly sensitive to moving/walking around as the music was playing without distortion. I don’t have to tell you, this does not happen with CD’s or digital files.
I have my turntable on top of a pretty beefy steel frame with wood shelves 60” long ‘TV stand’, as yes, my system also acts as a ‘home theater’ setup, as well as a 2 channel set-up for music. The Vandy 2CE’s are my ‘front’ and 2 channel speakers driven separately by a B&K 125.2 power amp. The lowest shelf of this unit consists of CD storage, the middle shelf my B&K amp, Yamaha V871 receiver (I use as my pre in 2 channel, although it does little as the front channel pre-out’s go directly to the B&K, and while playing music I run in ‘pure direct’), CD player, and PS Audio DAC which all my CD’s, files, and streaming runs through. The top shelf is my TV, Elac center speaker, and my turntable. At this time I am using the Yamaha phono stage (that could change soon, as I think a dedicated phono pre-amp would help things a lot). The TV/equipment stand sits directly to the side of the right speaker, not between the Vandy’s, as they are on each side of my fireplace. The turntable is about 4 1/2’ from the right speaker, and right about the same level of the Vandy’s front 8” woofer.
So, all that said, I have a feeling what I am getting is sonic feedback between the speaker and turntable, perhaps with the cartridge acting as a microphone getting hit with the sound waves from the right speaker, even with the dust cover down. Because of room and layout constraints, I have very limited locations for all this stuff, so not sure a relocation of the turntable is really possible, and if I did, would have to get long male/female RCA interconnect extensions to get back to my Yamaha, or any future phono pre-amp, which would still have to run back to the Yamaha probably utilizing the analog Audio 2 inputs, as the Audio 1 inputs are serving the PS Audio DAC.
So, is sonic feedback what I am witnessing? Or could it be something else? And is there any easy solution? I doubt isolation feet will solve anything if feedback between the right speaker and turntable is the problem.
Showing 18 responses by bkeske
Interesting. Thanks again millercarbon. any recommendation on after market lube? After comparing an album I have on vinyl and CD; John Mahall’s Jazz Blues Fusion, although the Grado Red made a significant improvement, I do think a separate phono pre-amp will be necesaay. The internal Yamaha phono stage is not up to par me thinks. The vinyl still does not have the overall punch and clarity of my CD/DAC set-up. Perhaps a Schiit Mani would help, and affordable as I get my feet re-wet. |
Thanks a bunch miller. Very good to know it isn’t a sonic feedback issue. I’ll check the belt drive ‘spindle’ for ‘feel’. This table has a lube hole right at its base. I always had the lube that came with the table handy, but goodness knows were that is now. Yes, it probably needs lubed regardless, so, is there any type of oil/lube I can purchase which will work? if I do decide to keep it on the stand, as it is extremely sturdy, would new feet or sorbothane isolation discs help? And yes, it’s been a long time, and never had speakers as my Vandy’s with this turntable. I started, with all things, Utah 3 ways, the last, the original Polk 5 jr’s (which I still have in storage). Never remember this happening with those. As I say, it isn’t easy to move these speakers at 70+ lb per, let alone from the reaction of the rear ‘acoustic coupler’. So, maybe some, but this seems extreme, and abnormal. I’ll put the table on the floor and check it out per your advice to get a benchmark, but good to know it may just need a good lube and some isolation/stability. Just brought it up this weekend, so much to re-learn from 30+ years ago. |
Thank you robertjerman. I’ll make sure any photo stage I’m looking at addresses that issue. As I do not want to spend a ton of $$ at this time, I’m looking at the Schiit, Vincent PHO 8 (used), Cambridge CP2, and Parasound Zphono (used). Now that I think of it, the Grado Red does have a range of 10-55K. I guess, if necessary, I could always get fairly inexpensive in-line filters. As I look more into this, carbonmiller hit on the basic issue, rumble, which is fairly common using turntables. I suppose my system was never too refined over 30+ years ago to be an issue. |
Thanks Tubegb 1) I ordered some synthetic lubrication for clocks, small motors, etc. I figured it should work. 2) The belt was replaced not too long before I took it out of commission, but yes, it still sat for a long time, and they are availiable and inexpensive. 3) Good to know, and yes, that is what many say; the cover down can indeed create issues. Typically I use the cover up while playing. 4) Not in a corner. 5) Yes, I’ve heard some suggest a wall mount rack. I may try some sorb feet first and see if that helps. 6) Good. Not the greatest arm, obviously, but for right now, I’ll see what I can get out of the Kenwood before investing further on a new table. But, with this ’hobby’, well.... ;-D 7) Agreed. I have found some fairly inexpensive high-pass in-line filters. I would think a 20hz would be what I want. This makes some sense given the cross-over in the Vandy’s for the rear coupler, and is the speaker effected. The front 8" woofer is not. If you are familiar with the 2CE Sigs, the front 8" and rear 10" do work ’in tandem’ but crossed over separately. So the rear 10" is not a passive radiator. I’m guessing after reading more into this, but do think this is primarily a rumble issue being passed to my Vandy’s via the cartridge, and not helping that it has a much wider range than the other carts I was looking at. UPDATE: Just bought the filters. https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006N41BU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 |
@jnorris2005 Great. ;-) I have the same concerns regarding the high pass filter. I’ve heard some say that a filter reduced their rumble issue, but who knows how picky they were about sound degradation. But, if it is indeed feedback, then that isn’t an issue anyway. Regardless, and as I stated, I’m looking into a phono pre-amp simply to improve the phono stage, and am initially leaning towards the Schiit Mani, as it seems hard to beat for $129 new. What I haven’t been able to find is if it has a filter built-in to it. I would assume so, but perhaps someone in the know could verify. @viridian Sounds like a good test, but unfortunately this tables arm will not lower onto a record unless it is turned on. The one thing about this old Kenwood is the composite marble/granite base, as it was sold to reduce external interference and vibrations (I still remember the sales speech when I was looking at it back in the mid 70’s) and makes the table very solid. Regardless, if this turns out to be feedback of some sort, that feature doesn’t help me anyway. I’ll try the filters when they come. If that doesn’t fix it, I can always return them. Again, that was somewhat a ‘stop gap’ until I spring for a phono pre anyway. If it does fix it, but I get degraded sound, well, again, I’m probably still purchasing a pre anyway. But, if it does not fix it, then it sounds like I am ‘simply’ looking for a new table location which will not be effected by the proximity of the speakers. And that will be more of a challenge for me, as my living space is somewhat smaller and filled-up right now. Just a bit hard to believe this could be an issue as I have seen so many tables located close to speakers in many set-ups, granted, many times the table is in-between the speakers and not ‘in front’ of them. But have seen that set-up, or a set-up similar to mine as well. |
@jnorris2005 Interesting to consider. One note though, when I say wood shelves, these shelves are supported fully by a metal flange and frame and also a composite (layered wood) shelf that is as thick as the metal frame supporting it, or 1 1/2”. I’m not talking about 3/4” shelves here, and one of the reasons I bought this unit, as it had to support my B&K amp, Yamaha reliever, CD player, and PS Audio DAC over 60”. Thus, it had to be sturdy. As an architectural designer, and builder, believe me, I consider these things. Thus, I think the table is very sound, though may not be isolated from other factors. I wrote this earlier, and then got busy with, of all things, work, so just now catching up. I’m going to try out a few things, and get back to you all. I really appreciate all the help, and am sure with those who have had similar experiences a solution will be found. OK, off to try some of the above tests and I’ll repost back. |
OK all, interesting finding. @viridian Yes, I didn’t really want to pull the plug with a record playing, but I did. Turned up up volume, and no ’howling’ at all. @millercarbon I didn’t want to, but finally moved some furniture out of the way, and set the turntable on the floor, right next to the stand. You are right, this eliminated virtually all of the 10" acoustic coupler rapid movement/rumble (not a noise, just the rapid movement). So, damn I thought, I really don’t want to put this thing on the floor. So I tried a couple of things; what if I put a thick piece of styrofoam below the whole table on the shelf? Have some in the basement from various exquipment packaging, brought it up, set the table on it and it was much much worse. Next, got some large tiles I have in a box, figured perhaps what is necessary was additional firm support. Nope, didn’t help. In fact, it seems anything I add under the feet, made the situation worse. Took off the platter and belt, locked the arm, and removed the head shell. Turned it over and inspected the feet. Over the years, 2 of the three feet had somewhat collapsed at the isolation sections, and two still had the iso section intact on the feet where they screw into the base. Which got me thinking...seems to me, more isolation, or anything, under the feet is created more issues, not less, so, what if I take off the feet entirely so the table base sat right on the wood shelf? Looked into the service manual, made sure the base would come off easily, it would, so removed it, and then removed the feet entirely (the screw attachment to the feet were on the inside base side). Reconnected everything, put on a record, and lo and behold, probably 88% of the sub/coupler movement was reduced/eliminated. Only when I cracked it way up did it start acting up, but again, way beyond the volume level with the feet on. But, the vent ’grate’ to the motor probably needs room to breath (ya think? ;-) ), so this is not a good solution, but what it told me was the more I could ’connect’ the table and the stand/shelf together, the better off I would be, short of putting the table on the floor. This seems reverse thinking of what we tend to believe with most audio equipment, but I may have to look for ’solid’ replacement feet, and not feet with any type of absorption or isolation qualities. I think my problem is that I have an old house, with fairly bouncy old wood floors and structure, and the large Vandy’s sitting on the floor transmit a lot of energy and movement into the floor via the anchor stands, and thus, transmit the same into the large loaded stand adjacent to them. So any ’typsy’ feet on the stand is going to react negatively, especially ’tipsy feet’ of a turntable. So, the filters that are coming are useless to me, and I’ll probably return them immediately. Good news is that the Schiit Mani is a good choice for a phono stage, as a filter is not really necessary. So now I have to figure out what type of solid raised platform or feet I can get which will be ’as connected’ to the shelf/stand as possible, not isolated from it. The only other options are to set thee table on the floor, get a separate turntable stand, or get one of my carpenters to build a wall mounted shelf. None of which I would prefer to do.....yet. I can’t thank you guys enough for all your thoughts and ideas thus far. |
The Kenwood is not a light weight turntable. Probably heavier than many in its pice class when manufactured. Again, that was it’s big selling points, the composition make-up and weight of the table. After a bit more searching for replacement feet, I’m thinking I may be looking for a solution in the reverse. In other words, perhaps the better solution is to get some type of Sorbo discs for the Vandy 2CE Sigs instead. As I have wood floors, I did not want to use the stock anchor stand spikes, nor carriage bolts as some use on wood floors. Instead I purchased, I believe, nylon disk furniture feet, made to allow for the moving of large furniture. Works great, but does not isolate the speakers from the floor at all. So, perhaps some type of sorbo discs under the furniture glide feet I installed would be an easier solution. Make it tougher to move the speakers, but not that hard to manage. I guess my concern there would be having the speakers ‘float’ to much. I believe the Vandy’s do like to be solidly sitting on the floor to perform best. From what I found doing some testing today, I don’t think filters are necessary. It’s in the physical set-up. |
@millercarbon Thanks for the additional insight. I had a pretty good feeling the styrofoam, or large tiles, etc. would not work. What I wanted to see was if the material I tried had any effect at all. It did. I wanted to make sure it wasn’t just a ‘sonic feedback’ issue between the speaker and cart. As I say, what I found was that anything I put under the original feet made the problem worse, not better, nor more importantly, the same. Instead, the table became much more unstable sonically and made the rumble worse, especially with the styrofoam. That was incredibly bad, and the coupler was pulsating stronger than any other condition. I’m no expert in this, but I would think if the problem was primarily a sonic reaction between the speaker and table/cart, these physical base/feet changes would not have had the extreme results they did. After finding the failure of some of the original built-in feet isolation design, I had a pretty good idea this was more a physical than sonic problem. And that the sonic problems and instability are a result of the physical issues, not the other way around. I think. I must say, you have some seemingly odd ideas, but it may be worth a shot. I still have a bag of sand from filling my Vandy anchor stands, so that’s easy, if I can find something to put it in and test it. And yes, after thinking more about it, I don’t think I want to isolate the speakers at the feet. I think that will just degrade the speaker performance. |
Oh, don’t get me wrong, I’m willing to listen and learn. In my business as a designer, I often suggest ideas to clients and they look at me like I have 3 heads, as they are out of the norm of what everyone else does, or what they have seen others have. The challange is to get them to trust me given my experience of what has worked in the past, and what hasn’t, explaining my previous clients were just as quizzical of my initial suggestions, but not after they implemented them. Yes, after 40+ years of not really listening to vinyl and using this old table, it is indeed like learning all over again, as the rest of my system has evolved way beyond then. BTW, I received the oil today, and all is lubed. I also, after much thought, decided to purchase the Mani today from Schiit. |
Just an update. Recieved the high pass filters, but left them in their package in case I wanted to return them. Recieved the Schiit Mani today and hooked it up. Prior to all this, I took all the stock ‘absorbsion’ feet off the Kenwood, as 3 of 4 of them had collapsed. I purchased separate turntable isolation pads from ‘High End Audio’ out of Brooklyn NY I believe. Set those under the table replacing the stock feet, thinking it I may need these anyway if I ended up putting the table in a tray of sand. Once I put these isolation pads under the table, it reduced the rumble by a fair amount unless I really cranked up the sound. After installing the Schiit, the overall sound really came ‘alive’ vs the internal phono stage, so for me, think it was a good choice. So, I decided to go ahead and try the high-pass filters placing them at the input of the Schiit, and it does not sound bad at all. They are 20hz (and below) filters and the bass from my Vandies, and my sub are still working fine without, and it seems without degrading any frequencies above. So now I can crank the volume way up with no rumble or speaker ‘shake’ or movement whatsoever. With the phono set-up I have now, I think this may work. Thanks again for all your thoughts and suggestions, I believe they lead me to a good solution, and am still considering the tray of sand, which may allow for the removal of the filters as well. Now to look for some new old vinyl to purchase. |
And get rid of this pretty tray of sand? 🙃 https://www.dropbox.com/s/bnavxx927vkeyl7/IMG_0965.JPG?dl=0 I may consider that, but right now, everything is working and sounding better than ever. 😉 |
Another update. After spending more and more on ‘new’ albums (mostly classical) I realized, stubbornly, that my old Kenwood was just not ‘cutting it’. Since I bought it in the mid-70’s it had issues with maintaining proper speed, and I finally decided it was time to replace. Still not wanting to spend a fortune, I found a Pro-Ject Carbon Debut for a good deal refurbished by an authorized dealer. Received it, set it up, installed my Grado Red, and ready to go. Unfortunately, some of the issues with the old Kenwood came back, and more. Just very ‘unstable’, especially when walking around my room. In many areas were I walked it created a lot of ‘shaking sound’. I even removed the stock feet and used pads with no real improvement (but the pads did do a better job than the stock feet). Other than that though, it sounded great. So, what the heck. Why is my TT location so sensitive? Going back to what millercarbon suggested, I purchased a tray, filled it with sand to hopefully create more mass, but that didn’t really help, but I thought it would. I also have a Bernard Haitink/Strauss/Concertgebouw album that was for some reason unplayable. It created dangerous sounding speaker distortion, yet other albums did not do the same. Baffled. I was considering either a wall mount stand or getting a treated wood post and 3/4” plywood to place in my basement and under the floor joists of my stand location, thinking I simply had to reinforce the floor. But, just prior to that, I was considering a record weight. Never having one over the years, thought they were more a gimmick than anything else. I set out to study which one to purchase without spending a ton on a potential non-solution to a non-problem. During that bit of research, I became more comfortable with the idea of a record clamp vs a weight. So, bought one; an inexpensive clamp made by Record Doctor via Audio Advisor. I wasn’t expecting this to cure the previously mentioned issues, just something else I wanted to explore. Got it yesterday, put on a record, clamped it, and for goodness sakes, everything ‘stabilized’, both physically and sonically. I can walk across my floor without disturbance, and just played that Haitink album without a hint of distortion. I’m amazed that a $26 clamp could have such an effect through the system, my set-up, and the overall sound. I’ll keep the tray with sand as it can’t be harmful, and I’ll keep it at its current location on my equipment stand, as a simple cheap clamp seemed to solve a lot. Go figure. |
Yep. I have to wonder if the clamp would have helped on the old Kenwood, but that ‘water is under the bridge’ so to speak (as it had other issues). The Kenwood had a sturdy rubber mat, and the Pro-Ject came with a flimsy felt mat, which I replaced with an acrylic mat (which I wanted to try before considering the acrylic platter upgrade option). That didn’t help with the problem, but does sound better. However, I did try the Pro-Ject with the Kenwood rubber mat before the acrylic mat arrived with no improvement. As an ‘old fart’ who never used weights or clamps back in the 70’s, I just wasn’t convinced I needed one. Well, as it turns out, it was a $26 gold mine. And yes, have been playing vinyl all afternoon without issue. |
I don’t use the lid while playing. Actually cannot with this particular clamp. I have been playing a lot of vinyl lately. Up till using that clamp, I truly wasn’t sure I would ever warm-up to vinyl over CD’s/streaming (and I grew up on LP’s, but basically completely switched towards the late 80’s) as I could never get my system to where I really enjoyed it, but now I have re-realized just how great it can sound. It made that big of a difference. In fact, my system now is better than I have ever had before in terms of vinyl, still not ‘high end’ any means, but extremely enjoyable and engaging. Good enough to now possibly upgrade more over time though. As I seek out a lot of stuff on vinyl not available on CD’s or streaming, it definitely has its place to keep building on my collection, and not feel it’s ‘second rate’, just different, and it some cases, yes, more enjoyable. And that’s the key to stick with a media. |