Coltrane. Can we talk?

You said a mouth full. Quite a critique of one of the great jazz masters. You must be an expert yourself. Can you please expand upon and explain some of your comments, in terms I might understand? What was so advanced about Coltrane's "harmonic conception"....What is a "3 & 4 tonic system", and why is it taking so many players so long to "catch up" to Coltrane's mastery of it?.....What is it to "move between equidistant tonal centers".....What, exactly, do you feel is lacking in Coltrane's playing and mastery of the instrument?...Please cite musical examples whenever possible......I'm gathering from your commentary that you are musician of some sort. That's wonderful. I can appreciate the fact that Coltrane is not your cup of tea. But I find it funny that you feel you are in a position to critique him, especially when many of the most respected musicians in jazz (Davis, Dolphy, Coleman, etc...)consider (or considered) Coltrane's music to be the high point of modern improvised music. BTW, George Russell (Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization) is probably more responsible for expanding the harmonic and melodic possibilities of modern jazz than anyone, and he actually feels that jazz just about died when Coltrane did. But I guess your studies have given you more insight (into Coltrane) than any of these other musicians might have been privy to, especially the ones who actually knew and worked with him. You must be pretty good. Please send me some MP3's of your playing, or e-mail me some of your compositions. I'd love to get a glimpse into the future of jazz. Thanks. Robert.

Frogman,
Hi. I knew I'd have some rebuttals to deal with after I wrote that this morning... ;-) As for "parameters" that were "lacking"- (perhaps 'lacking' is even too harsh a word, maybe 'missing' is a better word in this case). In my sincerely very humble opinion, there are other great tenor players that have more control over things such as tonal color, time (playing on, or ahead, or behind the beat), articulation, listening to the other musicians around them & reacting accordingly, etc. (Then again, maybe he was so moved to get the 'message out' that he felt justified in his slight sacrifice of the 'sum of the parts' philosophy.) All these things are important in my opinion in terms of being able to communicate that imperative non-verbal stuff that we listen to music for. If you go back & listen to Trane, his Main gift to us is through pushing the harmonic envelope. Which is what I love about his playing. ( I hate to say that because obviously he was such a great player and communicator emotionally, spiritually, etc.) - Maybe in order to go so far harmonically ahead of his time in his day, the 'underdeveloped' aspects of his playing were a price to be paid. (then again, obviously, it can also be attributed to "style") And actually, my favorite albums are the ones that go deeper. I do like the Ballads, Gentle Side, Johnny Harman, etc., but I think his big gift to us was the insight he gave us into tonality via tunes like Central Park West, Giant Spteps, Countdown, etc. And I love to listen to the era with Elvin & Mcoy. And the late stuff blows me away, sends a chill down my spine. I would include "Love Supreme" on my 'Deserted Island top ten list'. So, let me just clarify that, although he's not my favorite tenor player, I keep buying more of his music, already have a lot, and he ranks in my "top 5" :-)Thanks for the more friendly counter-post compared to the one I'm about to rebut. I'm afraid I've blasphemed the Church of Coltrane!! I hope I come out of this alive without being burned at the stake... Jay

A few of my favorite Trane cd's besides Soultrane and Blue trane are Giant Steps and Cattin w/ Quinchette. I hear a hint of Trane when I listen to Dexter Gordon recordings. Rollins is in top form on the Colossus album but Tenor Madness is also excellent.Try listening to Gene Ammons and Sonny Stitt on Boss Tenors for another pair of greats at work.For late nights with your honey, Webster rules on Ballards.

NYjazzcat,

Hello friend. I'm not sure if you're a musician or not. If you are, and if you're a jazz musician, then you know, appreciate, and understand what are called "Coltrane changes", and maybe were testing me. And no, the last thing I'm about to do is compare myself against anyone, especially someone who was so hugely important IMHO to the evolution of western music! So if you seriously do want to discuss Trane's "3 & 4" , or 2 for that matter- tonic systems, then we can certainly do so via email, I'd be happy to point you towards cd's, info etc to help you get acquainted. Let me know the extent of your harmonic knowledge & we can go from there :-) Also, it's not that it's really taking 'all' people time to 'catch up', but it's just a fact, that Trane's contributions to western harmony, especially in the realm of improvisation, are a nice little "litmus test" for developing musicians. A littel tougher than other things that come before it. That's all. Then again, he's not the first in western music to use the principles, it goes way back, but even in the standard repertoire there are numerous precedents like Richard Roger's "Have you Met Miss Jones" (the bridge, which is the middle section for you jazzcatsinNY), or even Cole Porter's "I Love You" speaking of "2 tonic systems". ( A bit of a stretch I know)
Okay, next point: "What do I feel was lacking in his playing and mastery of the instrument" as you ask. Well, to start, to put it quite bluntly, I dont think he mastered the instrument. If anything he mastered (and surpassed) the harmonic constraints of his day, which is what I love about his playing and his tunes. The other players I mentioned in my previous post, in my HUMBLE opinion, have better control over different and important parameters of music: time, tone, sensativity, phrasing, etc that I 'personnaly' find to be also rewarding, on top of the things that Trane did so well. As for musical examples, it's quite evident that Trane's control, (or his CHOICE to control, if I may concede a slightly adversarial side to my own premise), is not as advanced as say, Joe Henderson's , ummm on for instance, 'The Bridge' or 'So Near So Far', or many countless others ( more than ten actually, I guess that's not countless, I got carried away), in my CD collection. Also in the tone realm, Bergonzi just blows me away, what an amazing palette of sound he has, and that breath! and his tongue, woe, he has quite the technique, yes, better than Trane, in that realm, no doubt.
Surely you can't argue with me that Coltrane was as adept and comporable of a listener to the cues around him when considered against his peers and contemporaries? But yes, then again, he may have been so possessed of an imperative drive to 'get the facts out' about the beautiful gifts and discoveries he had to share with us that he chose to 'lead the conversation'- another matter of opinion of course. It's also my opinion that players like George Garzone or Joe Lovano have equalled Trane's harmonic innovations and in some respects added to them in their own way. Which is not to demean Trane of course, music evolves, collectively, thankfully.
Whether I am a 'musician of some sort' or not is irrelavent. And Coltrane IS "my cup of tea", big time, in many ways. I wish I could have met the man, or even seen him play in person, instead of the videos I own of him.
As for me being in a position to critique him: I'm sorry. I offered my heartfelt opinion of him. Maybe I did so because I feel that there is a somewhat unjustified pedestal he's been put on by history- and before you jump all over me for saying that- what I mean is this: History tends to overemphasise certain things at the diminution or exclusion of others, events, people, etc, and as history moves on, these things tend to become even more polarized, IMHO... So I guess my original post was trying to help others to see things in a more balanced, impartial way.
Yes, I agree with the greats you cite, he WAS a high point of modern improvisation-Harmonically-(sorry :-) )...
George Russell is a great man, a brilliant thinker, and yes, I'd agree with that statement, (as long as we don't overexagerate the point), and then again, that's something I thought I said in my original post...
Heh. 'Have "my studies" given me more insight into Trane than the other greats with whom he played with'? I doubt it. Enough said. BTW, What's an MP3?
As for the future of jazz, jeeze, I don't know. It's a great subject for discusion, or a new thread. I'd love to open up a nice bottle of wine & delve into that one with you. Off the top of my head, I'd say we're heading towards a more 'through composed' era of jazz. And as for specific improvisors who may lead the way, wow, that's a toughy, I hate to stick my neck out on that one, but if you want, I'll give it some thought & we can continue this. Sorry to be such a blasphemer, I REPENT!, I'll say a thousand "Hail Coltrane's" tonight :-) Jay

Whoops. I had just wanted to start a thread about my boiyyy.

The term 'mastery' i guess needs to be defined by those using it. for me coltrane mastered the sax because IMHO there isn't anyone out there who was able to communicate feeling like him. That is a mastery. when i hear that mofo play it's like he's singing - maybe off-key at times and maybe freaking out totally at other times - but that's part of the beauty of it and the soul of coltrane that will live forever. imho no one comes close to him in this regard: all the rest to me are almost forgettable - they play the notes beautifully, emotionally, have their own style but my appreciation for that pales in comparison to someone who seems to have a direct line from his emotions to his instrument.
Someone up there asked for recs and here are a few:
Ballads is good for beginners as an intro to coltrane, especially his syncopation on 'all or nothing at all.' i like his more 'modern' stuff when he really lets go of convention and frees himself to speak the truth. anything after 1959 starting with the classic 'giant steps'. check out 'live in seattle' for some real free jazz beginnings. I love, love, love the village vanguard 4 disc set. it's live stuff from consecutive days at the vv and you can really hear how coltrane just goes with his emotions by comparing the same songs on different nights. for die-hard fans only. admittedly coltrane went out the window with recordings like 'intersteller space' and his super-late stuff...he's so deep down there in the last years of his life i find it hard or scary to relate but you know immediately when you listen that this guy has found it. maybe that's why it was ok for him to leave when he did.
group hug?