Coltrane. Can we talk?

NYjazzcat,

Hello friend. I'm not sure if you're a musician or not. If you are, and if you're a jazz musician, then you know, appreciate, and understand what are called "Coltrane changes", and maybe were testing me. And no, the last thing I'm about to do is compare myself against anyone, especially someone who was so hugely important IMHO to the evolution of western music! So if you seriously do want to discuss Trane's "3 & 4" , or 2 for that matter- tonic systems, then we can certainly do so via email, I'd be happy to point you towards cd's, info etc to help you get acquainted. Let me know the extent of your harmonic knowledge & we can go from there :-) Also, it's not that it's really taking 'all' people time to 'catch up', but it's just a fact, that Trane's contributions to western harmony, especially in the realm of improvisation, are a nice little "litmus test" for developing musicians. A littel tougher than other things that come before it. That's all. Then again, he's not the first in western music to use the principles, it goes way back, but even in the standard repertoire there are numerous precedents like Richard Roger's "Have you Met Miss Jones" (the bridge, which is the middle section for you jazzcatsinNY), or even Cole Porter's "I Love You" speaking of "2 tonic systems". ( A bit of a stretch I know)
Okay, next point: "What do I feel was lacking in his playing and mastery of the instrument" as you ask. Well, to start, to put it quite bluntly, I dont think he mastered the instrument. If anything he mastered (and surpassed) the harmonic constraints of his day, which is what I love about his playing and his tunes. The other players I mentioned in my previous post, in my HUMBLE opinion, have better control over different and important parameters of music: time, tone, sensativity, phrasing, etc that I 'personnaly' find to be also rewarding, on top of the things that Trane did so well. As for musical examples, it's quite evident that Trane's control, (or his CHOICE to control, if I may concede a slightly adversarial side to my own premise), is not as advanced as say, Joe Henderson's , ummm on for instance, 'The Bridge' or 'So Near So Far', or many countless others ( more than ten actually, I guess that's not countless, I got carried away), in my CD collection. Also in the tone realm, Bergonzi just blows me away, what an amazing palette of sound he has, and that breath! and his tongue, woe, he has quite the technique, yes, better than Trane, in that realm, no doubt.
Surely you can't argue with me that Coltrane was as adept and comporable of a listener to the cues around him when considered against his peers and contemporaries? But yes, then again, he may have been so possessed of an imperative drive to 'get the facts out' about the beautiful gifts and discoveries he had to share with us that he chose to 'lead the conversation'- another matter of opinion of course. It's also my opinion that players like George Garzone or Joe Lovano have equalled Trane's harmonic innovations and in some respects added to them in their own way. Which is not to demean Trane of course, music evolves, collectively, thankfully.
Whether I am a 'musician of some sort' or not is irrelavent. And Coltrane IS "my cup of tea", big time, in many ways. I wish I could have met the man, or even seen him play in person, instead of the videos I own of him.
As for me being in a position to critique him: I'm sorry. I offered my heartfelt opinion of him. Maybe I did so because I feel that there is a somewhat unjustified pedestal he's been put on by history- and before you jump all over me for saying that- what I mean is this: History tends to overemphasise certain things at the diminution or exclusion of others, events, people, etc, and as history moves on, these things tend to become even more polarized, IMHO... So I guess my original post was trying to help others to see things in a more balanced, impartial way.
Yes, I agree with the greats you cite, he WAS a high point of modern improvisation-Harmonically-(sorry :-) )...
George Russell is a great man, a brilliant thinker, and yes, I'd agree with that statement, (as long as we don't overexagerate the point), and then again, that's something I thought I said in my original post...
Heh. 'Have "my studies" given me more insight into Trane than the other greats with whom he played with'? I doubt it. Enough said. BTW, What's an MP3?
As for the future of jazz, jeeze, I don't know. It's a great subject for discusion, or a new thread. I'd love to open up a nice bottle of wine & delve into that one with you. Off the top of my head, I'd say we're heading towards a more 'through composed' era of jazz. And as for specific improvisors who may lead the way, wow, that's a toughy, I hate to stick my neck out on that one, but if you want, I'll give it some thought & we can continue this. Sorry to be such a blasphemer, I REPENT!, I'll say a thousand "Hail Coltrane's" tonight :-) Jay

Hi Robert,
Sorry we got off on the wrong foot. I think you and I are debating a "Clintonism", i.e. it depends what you mean by "expand"....
Yes of course Trane's "music and harmonies are still based on the western diatonic sysyem, and are mostly tertian." By "expanding" harmony I did not mean to define the word as introducing a very different Fundamental system, ala Scheonberg, whom I will not make the mistake of 'dissing',lol,.. although.. now that you mention it- I'm more of a Berg man- to my ears, Berg better utilized and had a better command of the 12 tone bag, seemed like he breathed more emotion into it...
But, going along with your definition of the word, I'd include Messiaen in there too, and I'm sure there are others I'm not thinking of and many I'm not aware of. Ive's might deserve a footnote- if not for his methods, maybe for the audible results...(sheesh). But as far as I'm concerned, western harmony has been 'expanding' for over four centuries.
Of course the 'theory' always comes in hindsight, whether in consideration of Baroque or Bebop vocabularies & methods, and yes that theory is always lacking, almost a two dimensional shadow of the truth, with holes in it to boot...But it does serve a small purpose IMO primarily in generalizing for immitation & assimilation's sake as a part of formative, 'ingestive' periods in the artist's development. But I, like you, don't care much for it,or at least know it's place in the scheme of true art & the creative proccess and 'innovation's' sake. I would also say that the compositions of Wayne Shorter, or the playing of Dewey Redman, (to stay with the tenor thing here) have expanded western harmony. Or the beauty of Bartok's compositions-mmmmm to name a couple off the top of my head. Also I have no debate against the fact that theories fall short, most definitely. In sum, yes, Coltrane "did contribute greatly to the vocabulary of the western diatonic system", i.e. he expanded it. And I still submit that one of his greatest contributions was the way he moved between tonal centers, which incidentally I do understand and utilize in my playing and writing. Another thing you & I have in common, is I also don't like to get bogged down too often in this sort of rambling & cerebral blah blah blah. It turns out I'm a musician as well. So where are you in school? Who are you studying with?

Does it move you? There's not much that needs getting... The last thing you want to do is get caught up in the kind of banter that we've been involved in on this thread. Time to tape my mouth shut, make another pot of coffee, and do some listening. As Burroughs said, "Rub out the word".

Frogman,
Hi. I knew I'd have some rebuttals to deal with after I wrote that this morning... ;-) As for "parameters" that were "lacking"- (perhaps 'lacking' is even too harsh a word, maybe 'missing' is a better word in this case). In my sincerely very humble opinion, there are other great tenor players that have more control over things such as tonal color, time (playing on, or ahead, or behind the beat), articulation, listening to the other musicians around them & reacting accordingly, etc. (Then again, maybe he was so moved to get the 'message out' that he felt justified in his slight sacrifice of the 'sum of the parts' philosophy.) All these things are important in my opinion in terms of being able to communicate that imperative non-verbal stuff that we listen to music for. If you go back & listen to Trane, his Main gift to us is through pushing the harmonic envelope. Which is what I love about his playing. ( I hate to say that because obviously he was such a great player and communicator emotionally, spiritually, etc.) - Maybe in order to go so far harmonically ahead of his time in his day, the 'underdeveloped' aspects of his playing were a price to be paid. (then again, obviously, it can also be attributed to "style") And actually, my favorite albums are the ones that go deeper. I do like the Ballads, Gentle Side, Johnny Harman, etc., but I think his big gift to us was the insight he gave us into tonality via tunes like Central Park West, Giant Spteps, Countdown, etc. And I love to listen to the era with Elvin & Mcoy. And the late stuff blows me away, sends a chill down my spine. I would include "Love Supreme" on my 'Deserted Island top ten list'. So, let me just clarify that, although he's not my favorite tenor player, I keep buying more of his music, already have a lot, and he ranks in my "top 5" :-)Thanks for the more friendly counter-post compared to the one I'm about to rebut. I'm afraid I've blasphemed the Church of Coltrane!! I hope I come out of this alive without being burned at the stake... Jay

Kublakhan,
group hug? Absocoltranelutely. I had no idea I would offend anyone. I thought I was offering my personal opinion as to why I like him, and why I also like other players, yes perhaps a little more in some respects, ultimately it's just me, one guys opinion. You know, like if we were all sitting around talking about who we like & why, that's all. " I like "x" player because of this, and I like "y" player because of that" etc. Personally I love the more out there stuff a lot too. The man definitely did transcend his instrument, and became a conduit or mouthpiece for some very high truths for us all to be exposed to. Things that are extremely hard to talk about. I can't take issue with anything you just mentioned. It's right.
I wonder, hypothetically, what he would have worked on, or improved on, or grew into in his own playing if he had lived longer. What would he have said if he was asked, "Where do you think your weaknesses lie?" Is that sacriligeous too? Maybe, just maybe, he would have found new fertile ground in other wholly different aspects of music, aspects that lagged (relatively) behind his forte, (which I still submit is primarily his harmonic contributions to composition and improvisation), that could further his communicative genius. Jay

Robert,
Ah, it really is a small world after all. Do you know Scott Reeves at school? we used to teach together at the University of Maine. He was the head of the jazz dept., my boss- a nice guy and good player. There were quite a few great Maine musicians who moved to NY, Ben Street comes to mind. You also may know my cousin, another bass player, Chris Dahlgren, who lives in Brooklyn and plays around town with some good players, sometimes in Maria Schneider's band among others. Anyway, after I left my teaching position, I came to the Virgin Islands, where I live and play jazz, guitar... I've been strictly playing for three years down here. (Which is why I have time to surf the net during the days)... It's nice, pretty lucrative, but lonely. I have a solo gig at the Ritz Carlton, just got home from work. I'm out there 3 nights a week, and also do private functions for corporate groups here on vacation/incentive trips. I like to get up to NY or Boston a few times a year for my own sanity, and may move back soon, or go to grad school in NY or back to Boston at Boston Conservatory. Sounds like you were in Boston as well. I guess I really should send you a cd as you suggested, as long as you don't compare me against any monsters! Jay

Coltrane had a very advanced harmonic conception. Many other players are still catching up with his mastery of the 3 & 4 tonic systems. I would even go so far as to say he pushed Western music, harmonically, ahead a little, as other players are doing today. I like his playing, and I think he was a brilliant thinker as is evident through his improvisation. He also wrote some great tunes that will imortalize him. I have a couple dozen CD's at least of his or with him on them, ( I have a big collection). BUT, having said all that, he's not one of my favorite players. How can I say that? Well, while I've learned a lot from his playing, especially how he moved between equidistant tonal centers, in my opinion his playing was lacking in areas- areas that if were developed would have made him a more well rounded master of his instrument. I'd rather listen to Joe Henderson, wow. Or for a more 'modern' player, whatever the hell that means, listen to Jerry Bergonzi or George Garzone, both of whom took a lot from Trane, but both of who have their own thing going, AND have more control over more parameters of music, and their horns.