Only other great choice not mentioned is in the same vein as Jtinn and Khaki8. The MO Valve KT77. It was designed as a premium replacement for the Mullard, which was enjoying much success back then.
Only problem is money, NOS KT77 are even more expensive than the Mullard, although there are things they do that are superior, even to the XF1 Brown Base series. |
I am searching for some myself. I recently acquired four new in factory box, a real find!
I occasionally see them at EBAY, but price varies wildly. |
Zaikesman, I hope you never hear any of those "ancient esoterica" tubes for yourself.
If you did, you would discover that money invested in premium tubes are often more improvement than twice that amount in equipment upgrades.
Tubes are not just parts, they are the heart of the equipment and almost as important to performance as the design itself.
One last factor to consider. Many of the old tubes such as the KT 77 are known to last 30 years and more. How many Svetlana's and for what amount of money would be required to equal that durability record? Assuming you are willing to take the quality "hit" along with the cash. |
When the best tubes were manufactured, they were the industry that brought the brightest minds and biggest budgets into play, much like the aerospace or computer industry today.
The materials and manufacturing quality control standards (especially for Military versions) were often "cost no object." This was due to the fact that we were at war and fighting for our very survival.
The Russian tubes are good, no doubt. They are however the product of great American marketing, where we find cheap labor (China as well) and make a decent knock off. The true cost of a Svetlana EL 34 is less than 50 cents. No doubt a great value for the money, but hardly state of the art.
If your equipment does not benefit from the better quality, then you are blessed. I am after the best sound reproduction available and will not compromise on tubes, even if you perceive it as snobbish. |
Dekay.
The joys of tube hunting! I scored some Mullard dual getter XF2' EL34's on EBAY some months ago by a seller in Hong Kong. His rating was not built up yet and buyers were afraid to bid. I wrote him a note to which he quickly and courteously responded, and I placed my bid.
In the end I scored a total of 8 for $160.00, only twenty bucks a hit. This is not normal, but those who want the quality and are willing to shop, it is a great way to bring up your high end systems performance for a very fair price. |
Zaikesman, if you could somehow persuade the importers of tubes to spend the bucks and allow the Russians (or whoever) to build a line of tubes equal to the best of NOS, I would be ETERNALLY grateful.
Unfortunately, their concern is more with producing tubes as economically as light bulbs, making themselves appear gracious with offers to replace for free and warranty goods. Not to mention their program of giving away tubes to reviewers, guitar makers and equipment manufacturers.
Better in their mind to build a tube that cost them fifty cents, pay duty and throw away what they don't like the look of (rather than argue with the Russians about a slip up) and still manage to make a huge profit when they wholesale them for $6.75 (EL 34 is reference here).
If you build the equivalent quality of original USA NOS tubes (and some DID cost $100.00 each even in 1940's money!) the cost would be very high. I cannot say for sure, but even with inexpensive labor in Russia and China and the rare earth materials and hand assembly required to build the ultimate tubes, the cost could easily be $20.00 each. When you apply just the normal rule of 5 to 1 markup from manufacture to end user, this tube now costs $100.00 each. More money than some of us pay for genuine NOS stock.
I do like your idea, I mean that in a most sincere way, but I doubt that it will happen. In fact, about as likely as convincing the software manufacturers to upgrade our media quality rather than spending millions on pop videos for Brittany Spears. |
That would be nice, especially if you mean Western Electric. They did it right, but it wound up costing hundreds of dollars for the new version. |
Kevziek, a few years back, an amplifier manufacturer friend of mine bought tubes direct from Russia. These retailed for about $18.00 at that time. He and others in my audio group joined orders and bought 300 of them for about $3.00 each. I assume the guy in Russia that was our contact made something for his effort.
The five to one markup is usually on parts, and I did not mean to say that EVERY audio component has that markup. Remember that the manufacturer has to make a profit after designing the gear, ordering, sorting and testing the parts, then must advertise and support the dealers and customers and have staff to do warranty.
This is all very expensive, as we are talking about human time and effort. The cost of the materials may well be 5 to 1 or even greater, but that does not take into consideration the other factors.
I think because tubes are somewhat fragile, prone to failure with expectation of total replacement (not pro rated like tires) the markup is kept high to build in a bulletproof profit base. I wish some of the profit was spent to produce the premium tubes that we discussed.
As for the direct question about the Cary V-12, I have zero experience with it, but have heard from reliable sources that it is a very good amp. My tests of various EL 34 tubes in the Tube Research, Sound Valves, and Wolcott all prove the Tesla E34 L to be a great tube for the money. It is new production like the Russian and Chinese tubes and is probably not better reliability wise, although I do like it's sonic signature.
Of course the Mullard is what sounds best in each of these, especially in the high end gear like the Tube Research and Wolcott. They even beat up on my supply of Telefunken EL34's.
My posts were not meant to say that new production tubes were of no value, not even to say that they were not good. The discussion somehow turned to where I felt I had to justify the quality of NOS, something that seldom ever needs be said at this site. |
Zaikesman, your observations are no doubt correct. As with all electronics, the end result of various tube tests, whether output or input variety, vary depending on the gear.
I performed the same test with the Svetlana tubes that you did, only with the amps I've already mentioned. They were somewhat better than the Sovtek and Electro Harmonex, but still ranked below the Tesla, and way below the Amperex, Telefunken and Mullards.
As with all things in high end audio, best that the end user does the final test for themselves. Tubes are a smart investment, last forever in storage while generally increasing in value.
What is not the perfect tube in your system today, may be tomorrow. Investing in NOS or clean premium tubes to have on hand for testing insures you are getting the maximum performance possible.
In fact, we all voice our systems to the associated gear. If you or I changed a major component such as the speakers, or moved to another listening room, we may well choose a different tube for one or another positions.
I must say though, that in my system I always prefer voicing with premium tubes rather than current vintage. The only exception is the 12 AX7 Sovtek. I continue to be surprised by its remarkable performance. I wish the same effort would extend to the 6922, 6SN7, KT88 and EL 34.
Perhaps in time. |
Mwalsdor, I have a good friend who has the exact opinion as you concerning the double D getter Amperex tubes. In the Tube Research and Wolcott amps I preferred the Mullard XF 1 and 2 over the Amperex, but then again, it is a circuit thing.
The Tube Research was supposed to be magic with KT 88 and even KT 90 tubes. I tried all of the current tubes, Svetlana, Tesla, Sovtek, Ruby Tubes and others, only to be disappointed with all of these.
Of the batch, the Svetlana 6550 was the most reliable and biased up the best. Still, the sound was extremely disappointing, compared to Tung Sol 5881 and Mullard EL 34, the best sound I ever got with that set up.
Needless to say, I had complete sets of every current new construction EL 34 made, and tested for nearly three months.
Guess it is safe to say that testing in one's own system with as many options as possible is the best course of action.
Zaikesman, the Sovtek that performed so well was the 12 AX7 LP. This specifically in the first gain stage of the Aesthetix Io phono preamp. The ones I have had good experience with come from Jim White, the owner of Aesthetix, who selects them for extra low noise.
Quite necessary for this position in a high gain phono circuit, even with the best of the NOS tubes, and certainly for inexpensive tubes like the Sovtek. |
