Bifwynne- before the Internet made it so easy to 'chat,' buy equipment and research stuff, people used to get together in hi-fi clubs, and I suppose some still do. And the regular meetings were just a part of it. You also met others in your area, could listen to each other's systems, swap out different pieces of equipment in a controlled setting with more time and less pressure than in a retail store environment, etc. And, even in the context of more formal meetings, dealers or manufacturers would bring equipment to listen to. It's a good model and one we should try to encourage and support. It requires time, though, and more willingness and effort than sitting in front of a keyboard (not criticizing you by any means, as I sit in front of a keyboard).
There is also alot to be said for 'same manufacturer' synergies within a system.
You are right about the limits of what any given dealer can supply, Seattle Hi-Fi's views notwithstanding. If a dealer thinks, based on his own world view, with the best of intentions, that brand X is the best for a particular product category at a price, that dealer may not be able to help much if you want something else that he/she doesn't carry. Seattle (and perhaps a few other dealers) would be comfortable referring you to another dealer who does carry it. The obvious advantage of a dealer (or a good dealer anyway) is support, knowledge base and in-home trial. That's what you pay a premium for, rather than buying used, from private individuals. But no single dealer can know it all or handle everything.
So, just like many other things, it is on you to do your own research as well.
And, with context, places like this board help too. I'm not sure that just posting a 'what amplifier should i buy' is going to lead to much, because each of us have our own preferences and biases too, but in the context of specific set up questions, technical issues (I got a fair amount of help here when I was doing dedicated AC panel/lines), you can get some solid input from other members who are not trying to sell you anything. |
This thread has morphed a little, which is ok, but I want to come back to the original premise: would you just let the dealer pick the system for 10 grand?
My view had nothing to do with whether you could trust the dealer- assuming the best intentioned dealer, with good ears, and access to a wide array of different equipment, the dealer's sonic 'taste' may still be different than yours.
I have certainly relied on dealers in the past and will continue to do so- and i believe there is value in that: in addition to benefitting from their wisdom (with the right dealer) and the ability to get access to some hard to get equipment, they can (generally, not always) provide support, like help with set-up, loaners, handling repair processing, and accepting trade-ins and trade-ups.
At the same time, I have had any number of negative experiences with dealers, including some in NYC.
Even the best dealer is sometimes constrained by the lines they do not carry. |
Even if I trusted the dealer, I'm not sure their sonic choices would necessarily be mine. Add to that, few dealers carrying everything- they will be constrained by the brands they represent. So, I wouldn't do it, although I'd certainly listen to what a dealer recommended as a system at a given price point and decide for myself. |
Tennis- I think you meant 'can't.'
Schubert- yes, there is something appealing about that, including the idea
of an integrated amp today when, 20 years ago, it would likely have been a
compromise. I suspect though, that you are only at the point where you are
now, having been through the thoroughbred stuff. It's sort of like seeing the
appeal of a Dino 246- not a macho car, but after you've had your share of
those, you get the idea of its beauty and its limitations are far more in
proportion to real world driving than a modern-ish supercar. |
foster, i misunderstood the premise. then yes, of course, take advantage of what a good dealer can offer you. (and by that, I don't mean tap their knowledge, and then buy on line), a good dealer is, to me, worth the premium if they can offer the kinds of support that i mentioned as well as an array of good two channel equipment. sometimes, the 'premium' is not a premium at all.
mr tennis- yes, of course, independent research is not only important, but fun, it is part of the hobby. however, trial and error can be expensive.
one of the added benefits of using a good dealer is the opportunity (not always, for every piece of equipment) to get a home trial before you buy.
that can save grief, and money. |
As I remember SBS, one month he was promoting brand X as the best
thing since sliced bread, and a few months later, it was an entirely different
brand. I bought a few pieces from him back in the day but they were things
I went in knowing i wanted- it was simply that he carried the line at the time. |
Burt, prop. said:
"Moreover, I take issue with individual component reviews vs. system reviews. Brand X preamp may we highly touted and reference caliber but only when placed within certain systems. "
I couldn't agree more. Assembling a 'system' on the basis of 'best' of category is not a system.
As to Internet bloggers, just like professional reviewers, you need context- you need to know what their systems consist of (see your point above), what their obvious (and not so obvious) biases are (something that can be discerned if you read, at least in the case of professionals, their reviews over a period of time) and what they consider to be references.
The value of this site, and others, like audio chat groups, may not be so much the 'rave' user review or the occasional trend (everybody is using X) but broader ranging 'compatability' or 'synergy' issues, like your point above re system matching, as well as best practices for set-up, tweaking and the like across a variety of systems and user experiences.
Glad you are still passionate about hi-fi. It's not easy when it is your business and you have to deal with the constant demands made by customers, manufacturers, employees and the marketplace. As a hobbyist, it's comparatively easy. |
Burt,
Your perspective is valuable. But, I'm not sure every dealer will go out of his/her way to accomodate a customer who wants a product the dealer doesn't carry. It basically means sending the customer to a competitor, no matter how friendly. (You may have those kinds of positive relationships). I was under the impression, at least for some product lines that are territorially exclusive, that you (and the providing dealer) could get into trouble by effectively retailing a brand, if it is exclusive, that you don't carry. My knowledge on this may be obsolete, I am certainly not looking for an argument either. I just figured a guy comes in, says I want 10 grand worth of stuff, and if you sell Rega and not Avid, you are going to sell him a Rega. (I have little experience with either brand, so I'm just using those as examples).
Best, and keep the faith. As I mentioned in an earlier post, using a top flight dealer is worth every penny in terms of service and support. There are few bargains in life, and hi-fi is rarely one of them in the long run. |
I think you could divide the customer world into two general categories: those who just want a good system and aren't going to be bothered with upgrades, tweaks or the latest developments, on the one hand; then, those who are, or become hobbyists, and are more deeply involved in the 'why' and 'how do i improve the sound' and get engaged in the process, the equipment and all the associated stuff (the reason, I think, that many of us are on a place like this).
A good dealer can serve both types of customer. The first type may have to rely more heavily on the dealer's advice, and ultimately, may never look back (except for repairs or problems). Sure, the customer may visit several dealers and listen to several systems in the process, but it's not an ongoing process once the equipment is bought and set up. The second- the hobbyist- is constantly examining, re-examining. They read, chat, raise doubts and may decide that they know what they are after- thus, the dealer's views may or may not be as important to them. I know that this has the potential to drive a dealer crazy if the hobbyist is ultimately not spending money, but sort of an audio enthusiast 'without portfolio,' constantly hanging out, expressing opinions and then buying used, DIY, etc. I would think most dealers would ultimately shun such people since they aren't really customers. And finally, the hobbyist customer who does spend money, whether they look to the dealer for advice, or simply go to the dealer because that's a source of supply for a particular line.
I would think a dealer would like the more passive customer or the well-heeled hobbyist and not want to devote time to tire-kicking hobbyists who are never going to buy (from the dealer) anyway. |
Mr. Tennis: I think he acknowledged that only the buyer knows what sound he likes.
Funny, unlike you, the more educated and knowledgeable I have become over the years in any pursuit, whether it is law, cars, hi-fi or whatever, the more I realize how little i really know.
You seem determined to prove that you can assemble a great system without help from a dealer. Nobody is arguing that you can't. But I'm not sure that make anybody that uses a dealer an ignoramus.... |
