Work for Dunlavy IV should read 'with' :) |
It might work, but if you use EL34s instead of KT88s, 6550s or KT90s, you probably won't have the bass control you want. I used Jadis JA-80s (50-60 watts) on Duntech Princesses (pretty much the same speaker as the SC-IV) for years and gave up a bit of bass control for the glorious midrange, and it filled up an 18 by 20 room pretty easily. A DA-60 would be similar to the 80s in terms of power and might be a slightly better match than the Orchestra. I also am of the view that the Dunlavy designs sound better with tubes, so I think you might like the sound you get. The best sound I ever heard with Dunlavy SC-Vs (admittedly on material without a lot of deep bass) was with a VAC Renaissance 30-30 amp, so they can be driven with that power, you'll just not be able to listen at head-banging levels. |
Thanks Rcprince. The other alternative is to go with Cary Integrated. Starting with 300SEI and may be up to SLI80. |
I own a pair of SC-III's and have been very impressed driving them with a PrimaLuna Prologue 1. It's rated at 35wpc using EL34s. Before it I was using a Krell integrated with 150wpc. The PL is a significant improvement. Although I did lose a very small amount of bass slam, overall there is much more bass. I'd give the Jadis a try you just might be surprised with the result. |
I ve try many different tube amplifers with my dunlavy sc-IV a few years ago.I think the BAT VK-60 is the best match for the dunlavy. |
As much as I like the Cary products, the Jadis is a different league in terms of refinement, in my opinion. If you've heard the Jadis midrange you'll know what I'm talking about--there's a naturalness to the Jadis electronics that is very rarely heard. SC-IIIs might be a better match for the lower powered integrated, as they don't have the lowest bass that puts more demands on the amp, but I still think that it will work with your IVs as well, just don't expect bass "slam" or particularly tight, well-controlled bass (it will be full, though), especially if you use EL-34s. |
Pierre Gabriel, the US distributor suggested that the Jadis DA-30 would do a better job on Dunlavy IVs due to its all of 30 Watts Class -A power. It would perform twice the power as compared to ORC. I am really tempted. I am going to audition these amps at the local dealer. Too bad I can't take my IVs with me. I would try to bring the amps home for audition if they let me. |
Having owned the JOR previously, and now the DA30, I can say that the DA30 has NOT done a better job in driving the two pairs of loudspeakers I own.
The JOR's "40 wpc rating" is really taken from the Orchestra, which uses EL34s, with smaller transformers. I am unsure of the actual power of the JOR, which used KT90 in my former amp, and currently sold with KT88. I have read 53 wpc, but never anything official. But, it quite possibly could be more. Yes, the JOR operates in Class A/B, and the DA30 in Class A, so there is a lot of apple sauce and orange juice here in trying to compare them on paper.
Like you, I was also told the DA30 was the stronger of the two amplifiers. But, in my case, the JOR easily offers more ultimate power. I will say that before the DA30 runs out of steam, and becomes very wooly sounding, it sounds far more authoritative than the JOR.
They are quite different sounding animals actually, to my very great surprise. The JOR's midrange, once I retubed with JJ Blue Glass E34L has yet to be eclipsed by any stereo system I have encountered. With my Coincident speakers, it was simply perfect. The DA30 has not presented that with me yet, but the sound it produces through the bass and lower midrange is incredible. Not like almost anything being produced today, which tends to highlight the presence region. No, the DA30 offers tremendous liquidity, richness, and weight.
I need to include that my DA30 is of 1990 - 1991 vintage, and the current iteration has some differences. Also, one would think Pierre Gabriel would know best, as he has both readily at his disposal. Still, I must relay my own personal experiences, for what they are worth. And, as my friend Rcprince alluded to, a Jadis is something that most people these days just cannot truly appreciate due to their lack of exposure. Most unfortunate. If you have the chance to own one in the right circumstances, which is the crux of your question (and I cannot help in that regard), I highly doubt you will be disappointed. |
I wouldn't be surprised since, of all the Jadis amps up to the JA-200, the JA-30 had, in my opinion, the best bass performance. And I do like the DA integrateds even better than the Orchestra. They should let you take it home if you agree to buy it if it works in your application. Let us know how it turns out. |
Thanks Rcprince and Trelja. Trelja the current JOR and JOE (Evolution) uses 2 ECC83/121X7/7025 AND 4X KT88's, No mention of EL34s. From what I read from your experiences, I can't go wrong with either JOR ro JOE ( the new model Orchestra Evolution with black face plates and wood sides that I prefere. I can't tell any difference in specs) or DA-30. Although there is rather big price difference ($2000 on list price) between JOR and DA-30. While I CAN afford DA-30, If DA-60 (stop me now:)) is not that much money over DA-30, would that be overall better choice? Or JOR would be good enough for my this 'small' system. DA-60 would surely be safe from power point of view it sounds like. I will make my final call when I audition JOR (Or DA-30/60, if they have one on hand). Okay now what kind of interconnects will work with these amps. BTW I may get JADIS JA-3 or Symphonia CD player with this. What do you think? I personally believe in the same brand of electronics.
Thx. |
Nilthepill, the interconnects really are something that is difficult to recommend. You should have the rest of your system completed, and use them to dial the sound that last nth degree in the direction you would like to take it. I will say that if you can get your hands on a silver power cord, that definitely made a difference. The various copper cods I tried didn't do all that much.
Yes, the JOR/JOE have used KT90/KT88, but you are also able to run EL34, 6CA7, and 6550. I found the midrange sounded the way I described with the EL34. This tube did result in me having to go up two notches on the control to achieve the same volume, and did not produce the same level of bass extension, impact, or quality. Still, the positives definitely outweighed the negative. The KT88 offered a nice balance between what the larger tubes did well, along with improved midrange. The KT90 was a colder sound that left me much less satisfied after hearing the others. I didn't give the KT88s enough of an audition, but it felt like the JJ Blue Glass E34L produced the finest overall sound.
The DA30 was about $2300 more when I bought my JOR ($5800 vs $3500). The difference has possibly changed along with the exchange rate. I have read the prices on the DA60 and new DA88 are now significantly higher than when I was looking for them (about $8500, now $11K), due to the exchange rate.
I think the active preamp section of the DA30 is a big part of why the sound is so different between it and my old JOR. The 3 12AU7 tubes really have a big influence on the sonics. So far, I have tried Ei, National, and Mullard Blackburn, with the Mullards being clearly the best. Though for new production tubes and at extremely low cost, the Ei are most highly recommended. Again, the sonics of the JOR and DA30 amps that I have owned could not be more different in my two systems. Perhaps the current products are more similar? I do know that my DA30 is a VERRRRRRRRY early version, and the design has since changed in the direction of increased thermal stability, etc. (supposedly at the expense of sonics, but I cannot confirm that as I don't have a new one here for comparison). High end in general has clearly moved from the lush to the lean sound in the past decade plus, and maybe Jadis has this trend as well? If so, then maybe the DA30 and JOR of today are more close than I have seen.
I think at this point, we need to turn things around, and ask you what your likes and dislikes are in terms of sonics, music, and the room size, etc. In all honesty, I am thinking that the DA30 is possibly not the amp for you. Again, my DA30 runs out of steam before my JOR ever did. However, depending on things such as your tastes and ability to drive those Dunlavys, perhaps the JOR, DA60, or DA88 would fit the bill. And, I do recommend the JOR over the JOE, as I really enjoyed having the tone controls, despite their being taboo in audiophilia.
And, definitely follow the advice of Russ (Rcprince). Not only is he a wonderful person and friend, there are few who know more about Jadis.
GOOD LUCK! |
I agree with Joe (Trelja) about the interconnects, we really would need to know your preferences before we could recommend anything, but save them for last after you've lived with your choice of amp for a while.
DA30 vs. 60?--well, I have heard the 60, and it is close to the sound of my old JA80s, which is what it is closest to in terms of power. FWIW, I have always liked the JA80 best of the Jadis line, with the 30 right behind it--the higher-powered amps are leaner-sounding than the lower-powered ones, and I feel the 80s struck the right balance between sweetness and power, even though I admit they do sound "colored" next to most other equipment. The DA60 should easily drive the Dunlavys, though it will probably be a little full in the bass, depending on the tubes you use. Given Joe's experience with the DA30, you really should insist that the dealer give you a chance to listen in your system before buying, though you can certainly narrow down your choices with an audition at the dealer's showroom. The JOR with KT88s just might be the best choice for you, and at a significant cost savings as well.
As far as tubes go, stick with the stock ones they give you for a while to see how they do before you start tube-rolling. My preference (and recognize that I like a lush sound for the most part) is for NOS Gold Lion KT88s, which combine the virtues of a midrange almost as seductive as with the best EL-34s, far more bass than the EL-34s and as much as 6550s, and tremendous longevity (every 6550 or EL-34 I used in my JA-80s would start going bad and popping their fuses within a year, but my Gold Lions were still going strong after four years, so you pay a lot for them but they last longer). 6550s are sort of OK in that they do bass with some tightness, but I always felt they robbed a little of the midrange magic that is the Jadis strength--however, if you can get some genuine NOS Tung-Sols, then you will be quite close to the Gold Lion sound for a lower price. KT90s, while initially sounding clean and dynamic, ultimately just wore out their welcome--I felt they lost too much in the way of harmonics in the midrange; Joe's description of "colder" is an excellent one. I consider them to be a slightly better 6550, but not my cup of tea. And if you just want midrange, EL-34s are the ticket, but with SC-IVs I'd recommend against them, you're losing too much bass control in my view. For input tubes I used both Mullards (a little leaner and "faster" sounding) and Telefunkens (more balanced in the full frequency range to my ear) in my JA-80s and in my old JP80 preamp, those brands are my favorites in Jadis equipment, the EIs running third, similar in sound to the Teles.
And despite what Joe implies (I consider him to be a friend and a very nice guy as well), I'm really not an expert on Jadis, but I have had a lot of time living with their products so I can try to pass on what I learned by trial and error, mostly. |
Okay I auditioned the JOR with Jadis Tubed JD-3 CD player. It turns out that the owner of store brought his own JOR. It had KT-90 tubes that the owner has switched from original EL-34. He hooked up the JOR with the Vandersteen 2c. He did not feel it is good idea to hook that up with the Wilson MAXX in the other room (:)). It was first time I ever show Wilsons in person and later listened to them. More on that later.
The interconects used were Cadras. I played my own CDs that I was familiar with. The music was all different - Raggae, Jazz, powerful orchestra, electronic, White strips, and Baroque music. First observation was that the JOR was much bigger in size than what I visualized. Awsome looking. The sound was much more powerul , dynamic and fuller and louder than what I thought would be. At no time it did not sound like JOR was struggling at all. The bass content was there, but rather fuller and rounder than what I am used with my classe CA-400s. This was expected. Mid range was fluidic and lush (especially Baroque music) and captivating. At times I heard more music details than my big system at home. However I thought highs were rather lacking and does not seem to have much air in it. Could be the Vandersteens. Harmonics and timbre sounded close to real and thought that it was notched a vee bit and I thought could be better at the edges. Overall I think I will be very happy with the JOR. I just to have get right set up with my Dunlavys. Like Rcprince suggests i should get the KT-88s that comes with JOR and try out. The owner offered to get KT-90 for me like his unit. I asked about EL-34 and he was vague about its compatibility with newer ones. Need to check with Pierre. I don't have any doubt that JOR won't work with the Dunlavy IVs. I also have Dunlavy II's that I can try out the JOR once I get it. The store did not have DA-30 OR 60. They did have mega bucks mono blocks though.
Later I listened to Wilson MAXX with great expectations. Looked really good. They were driving the speakers with Hovland electronics. Sounded clean but only sound stage was left to right. No depth at all. Did not sound like music. more like HIFI. May be it was the smooth jazz cd they were playing. It did not even come close to my expectations. The Little JOR and Vandersteen did mcuh better job producing music.
I will let you know when I get the JOR and hook it up and will report back. Thanks |
First off, CONGRATULATIONS NILTHEPILL!!! Welcome to the Jadis family! Secondly, there has been a lot of great discourse in this thread.
I'm really happy that you were impressed with the JOR. As I say over and over again, it is a crying shame that most people do not even know the Jadis name these days. It truly is in that strata of upper end high end gear. Hopefully, over time, Pierre Gabriel will be able to reestablish the marque to its rightful place in North America.
The fact that the entry level amp is able to make music that is glorious to the point of measuring up with components with another digit in their price tag tells one all they need to know. The JOR is a most beautiful component, and its looks certainly have high WAF. Though, as you heard, it is a Jadis, and its sonics take no back seat to its looks. Mating it to a Vandersteen is not a match made in heaven.
Again, as Russ stated, the KT88 really flesh out the lows and add some weight to the sound. They offer a midbass fatness that sounds better to me than the KT90, though the KT90's extension is superior. You can expect a much more lifelike, beautiful, and sunny midrange and treble with either the EL34 or KT88. What sound is right for you in the end can only be determined by your own ears and heart.
Supposedly, an EL34 gives up between 25% and 35% in terms of power to a KT88. Perhaps the famous Jadis transformers allow the gap to be a lot smaller than in most instances. I noticed my JOR and DA30 didn't give nearly as much power up when I ran them with EL34. Interestingly, when I recently tried the EL34 tubes in the DA30 for fun, I sat down to try to sort things out in terms of differences, and to see which was better. However, both my wife and daughter were able to announce in less than 5 seconds that the JJ Blue Glass E34L was clearly superior to the JJ KT88. Just shows that they really do hear better than us...
You can DEFINITELY run EL34, 6CA7, 6550, KT88, and KT90 in the JOR. The standard Orchestra's standard tubes are EL34, and its smaller transformers allow only this and the 6CA7 tube to used. The JOR came with KT90 standard previously, and now KT88. Its larger transformers allowd both the larger and smaller tubes to be run.
Also, I have prepared a six page guide to biasing the JOR, and you are most welcome to a copy. I had to really scrounge to get a copy of the biasing procedure (it mentions ONLY EL34 and KT90) from the North American distributor at the time. In the typical French fashion, it was all but intuitive. One sheet of paper, with an almost illustration, not very many words, and those that were there confused as much as helped. Eventually, I got everything sorted out, and it was not as bad as my dealer tried to scare me into believing. When I sold it, I created this document, full of color pictures, to make sure the person buying it had nothing to worry about. As an aside, my advice is to remove the bottom plate, which you need to do to bias it anyway, and drill additional holes that will allow outside access to the resistors and potentiometers involved in the biasing procedure. Then, it will take all of about 3 minutes to bias. The hardest part in my opinion is reassembling the amp after you bias it.
Hope you love it for a very long time,
Joe |
Thanks Joe and Russ for all the inputs and info you have provided on the JOR. I can't wait to get my hands on JOR.
I like finer things in life. I love my BoxsterS. I love my Dunlavy V, IV and II. I love my new SUV G500. I love my armani wardrobe. I love art and beautiful music. I think the JOR's looks and its performance more than fits right in there. No intention to brag or show off but I wanted to make my point clear as to where I rate the Jadis JOR. It is ineed one of the rare high end work of art piece out there.
Joe, If you don't mind pl send me JOR biasing guide at nilp@earthlink.net. Also let me know where to get the EL34 tubes. I am a tube novice as you can tell.
Nil |
