@james633
I would love to see more quality crossovers systems on the market. I think people not using a proper highpass system are really missing out on the potential it can bring.
Ayre Acoustics has high pass crossover input boards for a few models. I have these for my Ayre VX-5 Twenty. They are a high pass at 100Hz, and are a common thing for use with Vandersteen speakers. I don't have them in the amp right now, but will use these with other 2-ways down the road, if needed. I have a pair of Merlin Music VSM speakers that I'll be playing with soon, blending with subs, etc. High pass filters can also be built for insertion before the amp that will do the same thing. The input impedance for the Ayre VX-5 Twenty is 1M Ohms, so the caps can be very small.
Link: High Pass Filter Construction
http://www.troelsgravesen.dk/High-Pass-Filter.htm
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@testpilot Was that your speaker used in Danny’s video?
Yes. My buddy is also having a set of the revised crossovers done.
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@roxy54 Interesting @jim2 . The bold type titles you provided are not useable links, but thanks for the other information. Very expensive speakers considering that they need fixing.
They aren’t links, just headings for the picture / info below them.
@erik_squires These speakers are the old school Wilson, with a W shaped curve and the classic 2 kHz notch. It isn’t that they didn’t know how to do a baffle step compensation, they chose not to.
Also, hands down, Fritz makes a better sounding 2-way speaker that don’t require crossover upgrades.
Thanks for mentioning Fritz. I guess what one defines as "better" depends on what they like / finds of value. This speaker should end up with much better balance and, with the 8" Scan-Speak woofer, plays BIG. Big... so much so that one may not "need" subs. They make me chuckle when I give them the spurs. I do have them mated with dual subs, but they can swim on their own. I have full range sound / impact. I like 2-way speakers and I think pairing them with subs that can be tuned for the room is "smart money" for full range experience. That’s "my" better.
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@erik_squires Also, hands down, Fritz makes a better sounding 2-way speaker that don’t require crossover upgrades.
Erik, this may be of interest to you. You might find it worthwhile to reach out to Danny regarding the "Fritz Carbon 7SE" speaker. Danny is very open with info and I'm sure he has before / after measurements / thoughts about that speaker. I shared this info with him. He chuckled and mentioned it was more work to fix the Fritz speaker than my Wilson Duette. Not my words... those are his. If you like the Fritz stuff, that's cool. Sometimes it's helpful to have another perspective. 👍
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@roxy54 Sorry for the misunderstanding. On my PC no pictures have come through.
I’m glad you find it of interest. I messaged you a link that may help you see the images. I’ve found this process to be very illuminating. In fact, it’s really helped me to associate the measurements with what I do / don’t like. 1khz to 2khz... pay close attention to what’s going on there. That's the "brightness" / "forward" spot.
I have another, well known speaker, that I’ve seen measurements of. I’ve owned the speaker over 20 years. It is a 2-way tower speaker that people would say can sound "thin". Once I saw the measurements, it all made sense. It’s tipped up / forward in that region. I may send that speaker to Danny for a (finally) proper crossover design. If I do, I’ll share info about it. I don’t want to derail this conversation with info about that. My point is, watch out for that 1khz-2khz region, and if baffle step has not been accounted for. The stuff you think is "good and proper" and is raved about in print... well... when you hear it, then see the measurement and have a grasp of what is going on, it’s a lightbulb.
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@hilde45 I wouldn’t have Danny "fix" a Fritz speaker. That’s like asking Thomas Kinkade to touch up a Leonardo.
I get it. It can be a lot easier to dismiss than it is to seek. I’m sure many would scoff about messing with a Wilson Audio product, but here we are. This audio stuff can be "funny"... sometimes it's limited to drive-by hits / comments - lacking any substance.
I’m sharing the info... hopefully some find it of interest / helpful, even it if helps with their own stuff.
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@james633
Jim2,
thanks for sharing. I watched the YouTube video. I demoed the duette when it came out a longtime ago. Too long to remember the details but I do recall being impressed by the bass.
let us know how the final product turns out.
I am a believer in measurements. The last few speakers I have bought and enjoyed have all measured well. Ones that did not measure as well, I chased amps/electronics and finally just equalized them with software.
I will. This has been a fun project so far.
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Folks, you should be able to see 5 different frequency response measurements in the initial post, including a spectral decay measurement. I can see them. If you can't see those, let me know and I will repost, linking to a different source for the images. I have an image hosting account that will work fine.
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Original Post... Reposted with Pictures that hopefully show up...
Stereophile review from 2012:
https://www.stereophile.com/content/wilson-audio-specialties-duette-loudspeaker
Specifications: Two-way, reflex-loaded bookshelf loudspeaker with separate crossover enclosure.
Drive-units: 8" cone woofer, 1" silk-dome tweeter.
Sensitivity: 90dB/W/m/kHz. (Note: Look at this spec compared to the measurements below from Danny at GR-Research)
Nominal impedance: 4 ohms. Minimum impedance: 3.96 ohms at 3.1kHz.
Recommended amplifier power: >20W.
Dimensions: 18.4" H by 9.4" W by 13.75" D. Weight: 39 lbs.
Finish: Automotive paints in non-metallic black, Diamond Black, Dark Titanium, Desert Silver, and Argento Silver Twelve.
Price: $13,900/pair plus $1795/pair for matching stands. Approximate number of dealers: 50.
Manufacturer: Wilson Audio Specialties, 2233 Mountain Vista Lane, Provo, UT 84606. Tel: (801) 377-2233. Fax: (801) 377-2282.
Web: www.wilsonaudio.com.
"Overall, however, the Wilson Audio Duettes produced a sound that allowed all the music I listened to during my visit to communicate very effectively.—John Atkinson"
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I own a pair of Wilson Audio Duette speakers. I found a pair after hearing them at a buddy’s home, who also owns a pair of Wilson Audio Alexia. I thought they were different, cool... sounded BIG. I like 2-way speakers... why not?
Living with them... the Duette are extremely "resolving"... so much "resolution" that I found I needed to listen to them way off axis... speakers spread far apart / pointed straight ahead. With it being a 2-way with 8" woofer, it’s unique. It plays BIG, and is well made... except for the crossover, and the fact that it wants to melt my face.
So, what to do? Well, I sent one of them to Danny Richie at GR-Research. I’ve dealt with Danny before and it’s been a pleasure. One thing Danny will do is measure the speaker you send him, tell you what’s wrong with it, and design a new crossover for it - for Free. There’s no fee for that... you just buy the parts from him and you get a schematic. Fair deal, no doubt.
What Danny found with the Duette is eye opening. The reason the speaker sounds so forward is because the crossover was designed with no baffle step compensation. See the measurements below and the big variance between the low end up thru the midrange volume / highs and explains why they sound so FORWARD and IN YOUR FACE.
So, a new crossover was designed... here is how that has turned out, so far. One issue with the front baffle of the speaker is actually the foam on the front, that is meant to "help". The circular cutout for the foam (not the felt around the tweeter) is contributing to some diffraction / unevenness. I’m going to play with building up the area around the tweeter to smooth that "step" on the front baffle. I’ll measure the difference and see if it helps.
New Measurements for the crossover designed by Danny Richie:
Old Vs New Crossover Measurement
New Crossover Driver Response
Spectral Decay
Issue with the foam around the tweeter...
Another "Interesting" thing... there are 2 different umbilical cords for attaching the external Novel crossover to the Duette. The manual states the following about their use, and threatens warranty coverage if not used properly:
Umbilicals in Question... one for use with "Free Space" resistors and the other for use with "Near Wall" resistors. Different resistors are provided to adjust tweeter output.
So, Danny measured the 2 different umbilicals, to see whether there was a difference. Well, at least in terms of sound... there was ZERO difference.
The language in the manual and this measurement was disappointing, to be kind.
So, on to new crossovers. They are currently being built. I am going to make a custom enclosure for them as they will remain external from the Duette enclosure, like the original design. There will be significant differences in how they connect to the Duette, their orientation, etc. Here is the progress:
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@audioman58
IHave been doing speaker Xovers for years ,the resistor brand ,and type of capacitor has a lot to sayin it’s voicing , path audio make one of my 2 favorite resistors $30 each vs the cheap $5 ceramic type in many speakers also the capacitor will make the biggest change in voicing the sound .
Thanks for sharing. Danny definitely promotes using good parts. I don't have experience with swapping different parts in and out, so I'll play with that here and there. (This isn't the only speaker I'm playing with) One of his guys has been playing with more exotic parts in their NX-Studio speaker he has. You mention the Path resistors so this may be of interest to you. Well, he picked up some of those and found they have steel caps on the end that enjoy magnetism. Danny has had good luck with the resistors I’m using, and I don’t expect I’ll be buying any Path Audio resistors.
Picture Link: Path Audio Resistor / Magnet
do you have a Soft dome tweeter ,or metal dome .
You can read about the speaker in the Stereophile article, Wilson site, etc. They are Scan-Speak soft dome tweeters with Scan-Speak 8" woofer.
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@pwerahera
I don't think stereophile review of this speaker is great. Summary says Sophia 3 is better value. Whenever the reviewer bring another model into the summary, the model reviewed is pretty much a dead duck. And your own experience says very much the same.
I don't know if I want to spend over $10k for a speaker and then have to redesign the crossover. For its size, it has a 3dB bandwidth of 30 Hz to 25kHz. I know some big floor standing speakers which doesn't go as low as 30 Hz. It is unfortunate that it sounds in you face or too forward. I don't like that kind of sound for the type of music I enjoy.
I hope your new crossover gets the job done.
Thanks for your feedback. Fortunately, I bought these used. They have a lot of good qualities. I like the drivers, the cabinet is well made (needs some tweak around the foam on baffle), etc. They just need some better balance and I think they will be exceptional. Very cool and "different" for what a normal stand mount speaker with routine 6.5" woofer. I'm optimistic they are going to turn out very nice.
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@hilde45
Yeah --it's not scoffing. You don't really understand Fritz. He's a master speaker maker and has been doing it 40 years. He's a boutique maker and has very high standards. Others here who know Fritz will testify to the dis-analogy between Fritz and most companies, especially those trading (to some degree) on bling.
Thanks for your feedback. I'm glad you like his speakers, and I mean that.
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@waytoomuchstuff
What!!!!?? Take a perfectly good expensive speaker and "mess" with it!!?? This is like painting a mustache on the Mona Lisa!
Oh, the humanity!!
I like to use marine grade 1/4" epoxy for our custom crossover boards. After performing speaker/crossover mods, I look forward to the moment when we sit the customer down for the big reveal. To borrow a line from Doc Brown (Back to the Future): "When this baby hits 88 decibels, you're going to hear some serious s---!!"
Have fun.
There are a few unmarked black vans down the street that I don't recognize, but I'm sure it's nothing to worry about. There were a few phone calls with dead air and just heavy breathing, though... not sure what that's about. If something happens to me because I've engaged in heresy, I just want everyone to know that I left it all on the field. 😎
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@yoyoyaya
@OP Your posted measurements are quite different from the in room measurements that John Atkinson took. While he found the speaker peaky in the upper midrange, he measured it as a bit through the upper bass/lower midrange?
They are not different. Here is another example of measurements for the Duette. This is from the Soundstage review of the speaker. The speaker was sent to the National Research Council in Canada, which does their measurements.
Link to Soundstage Review: Wilson Audio Duette
Link to Canadian Lab: Soundstage / Wilson Audio Duette Measurements
I have overlayed the measurements from GR-Research onto the measurements from that Canadian lab. They are the same. This is not a "measurement issue". It's a lack of Baffle Step Compensation issue and that's why the speaker is in my face...
Soundstage / GR-Research Duette Overlay
Here's the bottom line... these are an expensive 2-way speaker with unique features that give it a lot of potential. In my opinion, which is most important since they're mine 😎...the speaker needs better balance. I'm hopeful the new crossover is going to provide that balance and I'm really excited about what these are going to become. I think they are going to be a very special 2-way stand mount speaker that can embarrass other stuff with its scale.
Also... I think it's worth noting that we should not assume that a Big Name / Big Price is going to automatically deliver sonic bliss.
Trust, but verify.
Why don't all speaker companies post measurements of their speakers? 🧐
I've been having a lot of conversations over the last few months and looking at these things and correlating what I like, with what the measurement looks like. This is not the only speaker I'm playing with, looking at measurements. There are clues what something is going to sound like, if you get some basic understanding of what you're looking for, and what you're looking at. I know just enough to be dangerous and have a much better chance of making an informed decision about what I like and want.
I hope this has been helpful to some, as it's surely opened my eyes (and ears)..
🏁🏁🏁
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By the way... I guess there are some not aware... if you search on YouTube you'll find a video where Danny goes thru what he found and did with this speaker.
Here is a link to it, which I guess is OK to post. If not then I'm sure AG will delete it:
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@yoyoyaya
@OP - IMHO John Atkinson's account of his measurements give a better description of the frequency response of the speaker.
Have you ever heard this speaker? I own the speaker. I live with the speaker.
I’ve shared a picture from a laboratory with measurements. John’s measurements aren’t the normal batch because he rigged it up, as I recall. It is what it is. Argue that your own eyes deceive you with data I’ve posted from a laboratory that matches another measurement used to make adjustments. Ignore what I’m sharing. John is right. I’m wrong. You win.
Thanks for telling me about my experience. 👍🏻
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@yoyoyaya
Steady on there OP. John Atkinson measured them in-room and was quite clear about that. I've heard lots of Wilsons of that generation though not Duettes and I'm quite familiar with how Wilsons of that generation were voiced. I've never suggested that I dispute your subjective experience. The speaker is lean in the lower mids - moreso if used in free space. What's what makes it sound bright.
If misread the intention of your comments, then I apologize. The speaker bites my head off. We're trying to fix that. Revised crossover work is almost done. I’ll share more pics, maybe this evening / tomorrow.
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@boostedis
If some of you spent more time understanding the DIY community or listening to some of the top DIY designs, you would gain a better understanding of how speaker design works and why you don’t necessarily need the resources of the Wilson Audio’s of the world to turn out top speakers.
Yep. And if you learn just a little bit, you can tweak things to taste. And if it’s something Danny has done, he’d be glad to tell you what to swap / try. When I hookup the revised crossover, if there is some quality I’d like to tweak, I have no doubt that with a simple email or phone call he will tell me “try swapping in X value such and such”. That community enjoys sharing with one another, and my interactions with Danny have been a pleasure. I shipped the Duette in a crate to Texas and he did exactly what he said he was going to do. He charged me nothing to measure and design a new crossover for it. I bought the parts from him and I’m having a ball.
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Final Wilson Duette crossover board. I will make an acrylic enclosure for this and it will lay flat at the rear of the Duette stand, where the current Novel crossover sits. The board is sized to fit in that space. I plan to make it out of acrylic / lexan, because I think it looks cool, and I want it to be visible. The parts will not be hidden / potted in the enclosure, like the original Novel crossover. Output wires from the crossover will exit thru the rear and out of the top of the enclosure thru a grommet. They will run up the column for the stand, under the stand shelf, and up to the back of the Duette... instead of hanging out of the rear of the crossover in free space, like the original installation setup. The output wires from the crossover will connect directly to the Duette - no connectors in between the amp inputs and outputs to the Duette. There will be one set of connectors on the enclosure for inputs from the amp.
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Crossovers wired and complete. 🏁🏁🏁
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@yoyoyaya
Nice work!
I’d like to take credit for doing that, but there’s a guy in the GR-Reseach Circle on Audio Circle that does it. I could make it look OK, but I can’t make it look like that. I’m hoping for the "Deion Sanders effect"... lookin’ good has to help it sound good! 🏁
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Hi @grannyring
Two questions. Why did Danny decide on using the JFX capacitors? Curious about his reasoning here.
I don’t know that it was necessarily "spec’d for a particular reason" and against something else, for a particular reason. An obvious thing would be cost. I think he certainly recommends using better stuff on tweeters, and that’s a common upgrade option for any of his kits, upgrades he designs, etc... Sonicaps. What is here is what he put together, and he put in the higher cost Sonicaps for the tweeter without me asking for them - but I would have done them anyway. I have seen where they and others discuss caps a fair amount, and they play with them. Many will use foil inductors, for instance. I believe the inductors pictured here are US made and from US Coils. If I’m not mistaken, I think they are former guys from ERSE? Whatever the case, this is what we went with and I didn’t push the issue on using foil inductors, Sonicaps everywhere, etc. I wanted to keep some sort of lid on this as the investment can get out of hand pretty quickly. If he thought this setup were inappropriate for the speaker, he wouldn’t have put the package together. We did discuss the bypass caps. Those are not pictured here, for a reason. Danny was out of Miflex .1 caps. JB caps were sent, and I may clip those in and see how everything is. The bypass cap stuff is likely something I will play with... clipping different caps in to see if I like something better. That’s why they aren’t soldered in.
Here is some commentary one of his guys had about this parts topic. He has a pair of the NX-Studio 2 way speakers and has been playing. It’s a sceenshot from his spot elsewhere. If AG doesn’t like it, they can delete it.
Lastly, why did you blackout the values of the capacitors? Not seen that done before on all the crossover pics I have viewed over the decades.
Isn’t it interesting that Wilson Audio has their crossovers potted so that nobody can see the parts, even if you own the speaker? They also will not share a schematic of the crossover, even if you own the speaker. I also know, first hand, that they won’t bother responding to a simple question about the kind of wire used in the speaker. For that matter, I believe the wire is by Transparent, but it’s moot at this point anyway, as I’m "hard wiring" the crossover, to a degree.
With that being said, I assume you aren’t familiar with what Danny does for this stuff, as what I did is quite common among those who appreciate the service Danny offers, for FREE. You’ll find pics in Danny’s forum will be the same. I’ll explain how this works... I spent ~$400 to ship a crate with the Duette in it to and from GR-Research in Texas. Danny makes it well known...in his videos, in commentary in his forum, by calling him, etc. that he will measure and design a crossover, for FREE. EL FREEBO. In fact, he encourages people to send him speakers. He’ll share the measurements, what he thinks is going on, and what he thinks should be done. He will design a new crossover for it, and take measurements. The images you see in this thread are from that process. If you want the crossover schematic, you just buy the parts from him. He may make a video about it, maybe not. Obviously, it’s content he can use to show people what he does, it helps the person who needs help. Parts have to get bought anyway, so Danny makes a few dollars selling the parts. Even so, there is no commitment to move forward on the crossover / buying parts. If you don’t want to have a crossover made for it because of issues / cost / the sky is blue, not a problem. He’ll pack your speaker back up and you’ll pay for shipping back to you. Oh, and you don’t get jammed on shipping - he plays it straight. Sounds like a fair deal to me. In my experience, he’s been an absolute pleasure to work with, and has done everything he said he was going to do.
So, that’s why the values are blacked out. I think it would be unfair to him if they weren’t, and I know that many other people who’ve done business with Danny feel the same way. If someone wants the crossover, you just call and pay the man. If another Wilson Duette owner wants to do this crossover, you don’t have to ship Danny a speaker - I’ve absorbed that expense for you - you’re welcome; however, you do technically owe me a Chic-fil-A sandwich, with cheese.
I like Mills MRA for low cost resistors.They are low noise and even handed. Yes, the ends of the Path Audio are magnetic, but they sound wonderful. Very natural and unforced.
Thank you for sharing that. Maybe I’ll try some one day. That’s part of the fun with this stuff...
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@grannyring
Thanks for the great reply. I watch all of his videos and have done so for years. I respect him and he knows his stuff. I also mod gear for myself and others for many years now. I get the fact that costs can get very high with parts.
I have worked on many speakers over the years, but not Wilson. I am sure your newly upgraded speakers will please you for many more years. Enjoy.
Thank you. This has been a fun process so far. In a sea of 5.25" to 7" woofer 2-way speakers, the likes of which I still own, I think they are a special speaker. They are different. I’m looking forward to hearing how they turn out. 👍
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The crossovers have arrived and I just roughed them in... wires crimped together, bare 16ga solid copper wire direct to Ayre VX-5 Twenty... I am THRILLED with how they sound!!! I set them to 10 degrees off axis with my Merlin VSM tool I’ve had for 25 years and my laser light pen, as that actually showed a little smoother response in Danny’s measurements. That’s before I even start to play with the foam issue around the tweeter noted above.
The dual subs are turned off. Because of the better balance, they sound fuller, the midrange now doesn’t try to bite my head off... so lush... enough to make you wonder if it means softer detail then BAM!... still detail / magic in the treble.
I have a set of Dueland bypass caps on the way and these are just getting started!
So far, this speaker has been absolutely transformed, and it’s absolutely for the better. If you want a pair of 8" woofer laser beams that fatigue you - keep the stock crossover hooked up. If you want a fuller, balanced, lush midrange presentation that still has air, detail, and sparkle that you don’t expect to hear when combined with such midrange... DO THIS.
I am so grateful Danny worked on this for me. My buddy also ordered a pair of crossovers for his Duette and I can’t wait to get his crossovers to him in Sarasota so he can experience them "the way they oughta be"...
It’s so satisfying when something comes together like this, and they aren’t even "done". 🏁🏁🏁
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@james633
Jim2,
very nice,
it does make me wonder how these got produced with this sound profile. Seems like it was an easy enough fix from a technical standpoint.
This process has been a revelation, and the back and forth with Danny on it has been an absolute pleasure. It’s been a very interesting thing to share with others, even personal friends. It’s curious how people form an opinion about someone they’ve never interacted with. I suspect sometimes when Danny "gets very direct" about a speaker in one of his videos, it rubs some people the wrong way. I’ve also observed that people can be a little... "funny"... about anything critical of their own brand, speaker... whatever. I suspect Danny actually gets annoyed with some stuff that he encounters because he’s seen it time and again, and there is a lot of junk out there. Others may disagree with his approach / opinion, but I’ll tell you this... I’m listening to a pair of speakers that were very expensive, even used.
They have been transformed.
Folks can put stock in brand, marketing, reputation, what others say on the interwebs - whatever. As for me, my eyes and ears are wide open now. I’ve been looking very closely at this and I think I have a handle on what to look out for... baffle step, "ringing drivers", etc. I know enough to be dangerous, and it’s a lot more than I used to know and I think I can put a finger on what I will / won’t like. As for any Duette owner reading this... you haven’t heard your speakers, yet.
I’m going to send Danny another, very well known 2-way that I have owned a very long time. It also has issues, that I never realized. I’m looking forward to it being fixed and hearing it for the first time. That will be another story in the not too distant future.
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So, originally I planned to put the crossover board on the base of the stand. Well, the board is just slightly too big for that, and the wires from the board are just a little too short. Plus, I didn't like the way it looked. Then it occurred to me... Where is the Novel crossover going to be? On a shelf? In a closet? "Lost"? That unit needs to stay right there, in a safe spot. So, the current plan is to cut some clear acrylic and mount a right angle piece to the backside of the column with double-sided, adhesive velcro, hidden from view and able to support the front of the board. The back of the board will be supported by another piece of right angle acrylic. To support that? Well, we have a ton of fasteners on the back of the Novel crossover to help with that! It will keep it all as one unit-ish.
The wires coming out of the crossover to the Duette will have heat shrink, to tidy them up a bit. The colors will be Tan and White.
TAN = "T" = TWEETER
WHITE = "W" = WOOFER
The OEM Wilson umbilical has one of the umbilicals in brown, and I think it looks good... different. So I think this will work out pretty well.
And everything I'm doing is nothing permanent... so if one day these find a new home, the owner can have the flavor they wish. At this point, it is highly unlikely they will be leaving my possession, even though other speakers will pass thru.
Well, that's the plan for mounting the crossover... so far... this evening... This picture has the board spaced up with the books covered so I can see if it looks "right".
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@james633
I do wonder if the same thing could be achieved using software like REW to adjust the frequency. I don’t know if changing parts or adding software would result is more signal transparency.
I have a UMIK microphone and miniDSP... have not played with either. I have all Ayre front end... QB-9 Twenty / KX-5 Twenty / VX-5 Twenty. Balanced / Zero Feedback. There is a magic to that equipment that I love. I am skeptical of putting a miniDSP device into the mix to run the entire range. Playing with a sub? OK. Playing with a tweeter... I guess I wouldn't know until I tried it, but this path is working out well, so far.
As for the idea of "adjusting the frequency" in general, I am all in on a great 2-way supplemented by subs, which can be tuned for the room. Lower cost, full range sound, with the ability to tune the low end for the room. It seems to me that when you go up a range in any speaker line, you are buying more low end... a low end you often are stuck with being unable to refine based on the room / placement considerations.
I think a great 2-way with dual subs resolves that issue... at least it is for me. And with this special 2-way with an 8" woofer... I've got scale that makes me chuckle at the thought of buying a Wilson sized refrigerator speaker... as if I were willing to devote that much capital to the idea anyway.
This plan is working well for me, so far. 🏁
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