Will a Proceed AMP handle LPCM input?
I connected the balanced output of an Oppo 95 to the PAV, and set the output of SACD to DSD in the Oppo menu. It sounded bad. Then it occurred to me that the PAV preceded DSD. I reset the SACD output to PCM, and superb sound returned. I suspect DSD would be fine from the Oppo to the PDSD pass-through, but the PAV can do analog bass management and the little KEF 102/2s can use the help of the Velodyne HGS-10 sub in the low end. db |
Do you feel there is a difference between the pass through and a signal coming from the PAV? When a signal comes from the PAV is is it kept analog? I would think that it would be kept analog just like the multichannel inputs are. I think that is the cool thing about the PAV/pdsd is that all analog stays analog and |
Tim, The living room system is 2.1, because the arrangement doesn't make surround speakers practical. I connected the Oppo 95 stereo to the LR mains of the 5.1 pass-through of the PDSD, and the sound was splendid. That setup has only the Oppo as a source. But if I migrated the same idea to the media room where there are 3 sources, two disc players and a phono stage, I'd run into the limitation I wrote about in my previous post. I'll try connecting the Oppo to the analog XLR input of PAV and connecting the output of the PAV to the PDSD, but what I may have liked so much in the previous setup was the direct pass through of the Oppo to the amp. I can go through the PAV or directly to the PDSD pass-through in the living room setup. db |
I connected analog stereo output from our Oppo 95 to the LR main input of the PDSD. The sound is splendid. The volume is controlled by the PAV, so the Oppo volume can be set to fixed -- initially I had the Oppo volume control turned down because I thought the PAV volume control might not function in this configuration. Given that stereo works so well, I assume 5.1 will as well. Last night I thought about how I might reinstall the PAV/PDSD in the main system. I could connect the Parasound JC-3 to the XLR input of the PAV, the Sony XA 5400ES to digital coax or optical inputs of the PDSD, and the Oppo 105 to the 5.1 analog pass-through of the PDSD. The Cary could go into the living room and connect to the Oppo 95 and DirecTV HD-DVR via HDMI. In the living room, an Amp 2 drives a pair of KEF 102/2s and the PDSD drives a Velodyne HGS-10. db |
Thanks TLS49 - I am aware of the proceed manual site. :-) DB - I gotcha now. I think the labeling of the connections on the PDSD are what led me to wonder. Plus typical balanced cords you go male to female but it looks like you need male/male to connect the PAV to the PDSD. That is crazy about dropping an AMP-3. I have one of those too. :) If you do try multi-channel from the Oppo to the PDSD it'll be interesting to see what you think of the sound. |
One of the things I have not tried is connecting the analog outputs of the Oppo 95 or 105 to the pass-through inputs of the PDSD. The 95 is connected to the PAV via XLR in the living room system, so I suppose it would be trivial to connect the unbalanced stereo to the corresponding inputs of the PDSD. If that works, I assume an entire 5.1 connection would work as well. I'll give it a try tomorrow. The Oppo could process the modern lossless codecs and pass the output through the PDSD. The Parasound JC-3 could connect to the PAV via XLR, the Sony 5400ES via coax or optical digital. IIRC the sound through the PAV/PDSD is at least the equal of that through the Cary Cinema 11a. That would seem to suggest I needn't have bought the Cary, given that I have a spare PAV for the living room if I moved the PAV/PDSD to the main system. db |
Tim, The PDSD has analog inputs that take the analog audio from the PAV and pass it through to the amps. Without checking the manual or pulling the PDSD, I don't recall if the cables are balanced or unbalanced. The control cable that connects the two units does just that. I think the menu runs in the PAV as does the volume control. There was a reason MSRP for the pair was about $10K in 1990 dollars. It was a sophisticated design aimed at being upgradeable by adding or swoping cards before Harmon came along. Madrigal provided great support. I once dropped the Amp 3, forgetting how front-heavy they are with the 3 big transformers. Madrigal repaired it and even paid the shipping costs with no charge to me. The HPA 2 and 3 at about 100 pounds are too heavy for me to lift, so I don't risk dropping them. db |
Just in case you are unaware of this site, Proceed manuals can be downloaded here, http://www.proceedaudio.com/docs.html Definitely helped me with operation of a Proceed DAP. |
db, Does the audio signal ride from the PAV to the PDSD via that interconnect cord? In other words, if I have an analog source connected to the PAV but the amps all connected to the PDSD how does the analog signal get to the PDSD. And as I type this question I realize, I have no analog sources at this time. But there is always the thought of a turntable. Tim |
DB - A different DB. :) Oh now you are talking my language about a quality vintage device, but you have one with multi-channel input. IF I were to consider the PAV/PDSD route, do you have any advice/gotchas to watch out for? DTC - I probably could cable up and avoid the need for a switch: - eliminate the Marantz DVD - apple TV - uses the one HDMI on the TV - optical to the PrePro - PS/3 - component to the TV - optical to the PrePro - Cable Box - component to the TV (Do I have 2 components...gotta look) - coax to the PrePro I already have a Logitech Harmony, so I'm not worried about making this work for the Mrs. :) This solution above would eliminate a AVP2 - it only has 1 optical input. Just thinking out loud here...thanks for listening/reading. |
Tim, We live in Montecito, a small town adjacent to Santa Barbara, CA. When I was planning to replace the PAV/PDSD in my main setup, HDMI was most in my thinking. Now I could do without it entirely. The analog of an Oppo 105 into a vintage device that acts as a switch and passes through sound cleanly is all I need. If it weren't for the phono stage, I might go directly from the Oppo to the Proceed HPA 2 & 3 monsters, because the 105 has digital inputs, including HDMI, and is doing all the processing. The Cary does convert RCA to XLR, which for me is a plus because the amps sit between the speakers, distant from the sources. db |
db, The Classe and Bryston would be fantastic of course, but out of my price range right now, sadly. So - resetting my expectations then, I'm either looking at staying with my current rig or move to something like say an AVP2 or SSP600 and add a HDMI switch which sends the audio out to the PrePro. This way I get the DD/DTS core tracks for BluRay audio and otherwise my system is tops for audio. The only thing I'd be missing is the DD HD/DTS-MA. This seems very reasonable to me. My current TV is a 1080i 42" Sony which is now 8 years old. What that dies there is no telling which way I'd go - 3D, 4K. So having the video switching external to the audio would be a benefit as I could change out the HDMI switch cheaper than the SSP. Clearly, I have no problem with non-current equipment as long as it sounds and performs outstandingly. Funny thing about HDMI issues - I have none with my setup: Rotel RSP-1069, PS/3, comcast box, apple tv and marantz dvd to Sony TV. The more I have been reading about issues with ssp's, I realize just how lucky I have been with zero problems. db - where do you live? AZ by chance? There is a "db" I'm familiar with who lives there... |
Tim, I am using the PAV/PDSD for 2.1, because location in the living room makes 5.1 impractical. To retain Proceed quality sound in a modern fully functional processor, I think you need to step up to a Classe SP-800 or Bryston SP-3. I got a great deal on a Cary Cinema 11a, and the Cary sound had received a rave from Michael Fremer. But the Cary digital is buggy. I use the unit mostly as an analog switch with its inputs set to bypass. Only a Sony XA-5400ES connects via HDMI, and that comes with clicks and pop when a disc is started or a track selected. An Oppo 105 and Parasound JC-3 connect to the Cary via analog. The Cary connects to Proceed HPA 2 and 3 amps via XLR. db |
Thanks dtc! Yeah so the pondering becomes using the core track audio on the older proceed gear vs something newer that will at least be the proceeds equal for 2 channel sound. I hope that makes sense. And all the threads I've read says that the old proceed gear will still hold its own in this respect. The only other alternative that I can see is something like an Anthem AVM 40 - but I have not read up enough on that unit yet to get my gut feeling for it. But the price and features and sound quality seem to fit what I'm after. |
Dpphd, Thank you for your response. I do not currently own a AVP or 2 or 2+6 for that matter. There is currently a +6 here on agon for $2K. At that price, I think I'd probably throw in the towel and go with something more modern. From what I gather, even the DTS Core track to an AVP/AVP2 track would be an improvement over the DVD DTS; and I have read there is much debate how much better the HD/MA tracks are over the DTS Core track. So that could be an option worth testing out if I come across a great deal on a used Proceed unit. Out of curiosity, are you using the PAV/PDSD for 2-channel work these days? I've read many people say to go this route as opposed to the AVP's for surround. Cheers! |
Tim, I have a number of Proceed units, including a PAV/PDSD pair that does surround sound but not lossless. I still use that pair with an Amp 2 in a secondary system. One solution might be using the analog output of an Oppo 95 or 105 as input to an AVP-6. The Oppo processes lossless codecs, and has excellent analog output. You would take HDMI video from the Oppo directly to your monitor or TV. The 105 has an HDMI input, so if your needs are simple enough, many would argue for taking the output of the 105 directly to your amps, eliminating the processor for sonic purity. I input analog from a 105 to Cary Cinema 11a inputs set to bypass. HDMI video goes directly to a projector and a monitor. I need a processor for HDMI from a Sony 5400ES and analog from a Parasound JC-3 phono stage. I use Proceed HPA 2 & 3 monsters in the main system. |
Thank you for all of the information. Yes, my question was really if the AVP or AVP2 could get the 5.1 LPCM data and do something with it. I now know the answer is nope - 5.1 LPCM is newer than the AVP/AVP2 DAC can handle. Fair enough. And yes, I was considering moving away from my Rotel in favor for a AVP2 - I do not currently own an AVP/AVP2. I am a big Proceed fan and have the following in my system: CDD, PDP, PRE, AMP2, AMP3 in addition to the Rotel RSP-1069. I run the front channel pre-outs from the 1069 to the SSP pass-through on the PRE. This way I have a pure 2-channel solution and HT all together. My interest in the AVP(1998)/AVP2(2001) was that the DAC's are much newer than my PDP(1990) and they are going relatively inexpensive on eBay. The idea was to sell the PDP and PRE and replace with an AVP/AVP2 for almost a wash. But the sticking point is integrating home theater into the picture - aka, the AVP/AVP2 would not have a SSP pass-through like the PRE. So then the question in my head became could the AVP2 replace the 1069. If I give up the Dolby HD/DTS-MA feature, than the answer is yes. I would need to buy a HDMI switcher. There is a cool Octava unit which will send the audio from the HDMI to an optical out. My budget will not allow me to get something amazing like the Arcam AV888. I'm not unhappy with what I have, it's just that little voice in my head that wonders how much better could it be... "Hi my name is Tim and I'm an audioholic..." (no offense intended) |
Let me try to summarize this. The OP may already have figured this out, but here goes. The AVP and AVP2 were state of the art multichannel digital preamps when DVD was the standard source. If you can feed them an audio signal like the DVD signal, they should work fine. Those formats are lossy 5.1 Dolby Digital or lossy 5.1 DTS. The Proceed will not decode the new lossless formats on Blu Ray, namely Dolby Digital True HD or DTS-MA. But if you select the lossy format (Dolby Digital or DTS-MA) from a Blu Ray the Proceed should decode that fine. The Blu Ray standard says there must be a lossy format available on the Blu Ray. The way to get a DD True HD or DTS-MA into the Proceed is to have the source downmix it to 2 channel, either LCPM or analog of feed that to the Proceed. The AVP seems to support 2 channel LCPM at 16/44.1 and, with the upgrade discussed in the review above, at 24/96 over S/PDIF. Correction: The upgrade to 24/96 came from a review of the AVP, not the AVP2. Sorry. Sorry to beat this to death. By the way, why are you trying to use the Proceed rather than the newer Rotel? |
Jrenman - yes, the Pro Logic and Pro logic II decoders on the AVP and AVP2 decode Dolby Digital AC3. AC3 was used with DVDs in the mid 1990s. The AVP came out in 1998 and the ACP2 in 2002 and used the digital formats of the time, DTS and Dolby Digital. The AVP2 added LCPM up to 24/96. Incidentally, LCPM can pass higher bit depths and frequencies that CD (16 bit/44.1KHz). For example, wav files are LCPM format and can go up to 24 bit/96 KHz or 24 bit/192 KHz over S/PDIF. LCPM can also be multi channel, but not over S/PDIF. |
I think you need to look a little further. Some of this depends on whether you have a AVP or an AVP2. S/PDIF or optical can carry 5.1 Dolby Pro Logic and DTS formats, although not the new lossless formats introduce with Blu Ray (DD HD or DTS-MA). S/PDIF can only carry 2 channels of LCPM. But, Blu Rays have to have the original lossy formats on them, as well as the new lossless formats. From what I can tell from reading, the AVP supports the original Dolby Pro Logic format , but the AVP2 added Dolby Pro Logic II (PLII). Original Dolby Pro Logic was 5.1 channel, but it tended to collapse sound into the center channel. Dolby Pro Logic II (PLII) is more natural. PLII was introduced by Dolby in 2000, so it was not in the AVP but was in the AVP2, which came out about 2002. Since the AVP and the AVP2 AVP2 can decode both Dolby Pro Logic and DTS, although not the new lossless formats (DTS-MA and Dolby HD), if the PS/3 can put out Dolby Pro Logic or DTS (lossy) and you can get it to a S/PDIF cable, then the AVP should be able to decode them as 5.1 signals. On a Blu Ray player, there is an option to but out the lossy (D PLII or plain DTS). DVDs come with the lossy format only. The AVP2 Manual describes using Pro Logic II, both movie and music modes. The AVP manual is also on the Proceed website. The AVP2 also added LCPM support, including 24 bit 96 KHz digital signals, by a solftware upgrade. See the review here I cannot tell if the AVP does 2 channel LCPM over S/PDIF or not. It does have AES support from a CD transport, but that is not what you are looking for. The new lossless formats DTS- MA or Dolby Digital HD can also be converted to LCPM or can converted to analog. As part of the conversion, a multi-channel signal can be converted to stereo. I do not know what the PS/3 does, but most Blu Ray Players, for example, can convert 5.1 DTS-MA to either 5.1 or 2 channel LCPM or 5.1 or 2 channel analog. The AVP probably has a better DAC than the PS/3, so if you can send a 2 channel LCPM S/PDIF to the AVP2 you can use the DAC in the AVP. There is lots of detail here. But don't give up on a 5.1 digital signal. It should be possible. Hope I got most of this right. Good luck. Disclaimer : I have never worked with either the AVP or the AVP2 or the PS/3. But, from what I read, getting a 5.1 digital signal from the PS/3 to the AVP or AVP2 should be possible. And certainly a 2 channel analog should be possible. |
Thank you HTH & Mezmo - you have answered my questions. I was hoping to indeed get the DTS-MA decoded in the PS/3 somehow into the AVP or an AVP2. Seeing as how I currently decode in the PS3 and send LPCM over HDMI into my Rotel RSP-1069 I was wondering if I could do something similar to the Proceed. But the DAC in the 1069 must know how to deal with multi-channel sounds in LPCM where as the DAC in the AVP/AVP would not (due to it's age). I have this idea of using the 1069 for HDMI switching and send the audio out it's digital out port into the AVP/AVP2 to hand the sound reproduction. 2-Channel audio is of high importance to me. |
And at the risk of making things more complicated (yet, honestly, in an effort to simplify) worth specifying exactly who is doing what. Your source material, to start. I am not sure what a HD/Master Audio track is but assuming it is either HD or a modern multi-channel codec (seems safe) then the answer is No. The DACs on the AVP wont have the slightest idea what to do with it. You mentioned using the PS3 to decode these tracks. As I would use that word, this means using the DACs on the PS3 to convert these tracks from digital to analog. If you could then offload a multi-channel analog signal from the PS3 (which you cannot, it only supports stereo analog output), you could use the DAC on the PS3 to do the heavy D to A lifting and then go multi-channel analog into the AVP just fine. But, again, you cant. So, as it turns out, the only way to get multi-channel info off of the PS3 is digitally, so that means you need an off-board DAC with the grunt sufficient to do the decoding for whatever format youre using. OK, little more info. DTS-HD Master Audio (which I now get is what we're talking about) is a HD multi-channel codec used in BluRay (among other things). Think it was created in 2009. There is absolutely no way any Proceed product will be able to decode this format. Proceed folded long before it was created. That really should be the whole story. |
Mezmo's understanding is correct. At the risk of oversimplifying, LPCM is basically two channel audio up to CD redbook standards. For any surround codecs such as Dolby Digital or DTS you will be dealing with "bitstream" not LPCM. So if you are looking to any higher resolution or surround codecs you will need to deal with HDMI hook ups and the DRM and HDCP that goes with it. HTH |
I'll first confess that I don't really know what I'm talking about. But, as I understand it, I think that LCPM (linear pulse-code modulation) is simply a means, and a pretty standard means, of encoding digital information. It's used in CDs. It's used in DVDs. The DACs on the AVP clearly accept and can decode digital streams from both CDs and DVDs, so it can obviously handle LCPM. LCPM, however, can also encode up to what we might call high definition (i.e., bit depths and sample rates over the 16/44.4 that is the Redbook standard). LCPM is used in BluRay, for example. While the AVP will certainly decode certain multi-channel codecs anything clocking in at what we might call more modern high-def sample rates or bit depths, or any of the more modern multi-channel codecs none of them existed when the AVP was in production. So, it's virtually certain that they will not be supported. Thus, I suspect LCPM or no is not the determinative question. The question will be what you're encoding by those means. Make any sense? |
I think I have found my answer out on the web: Optical or Digital coax can only carry two channels of LPCM. HD Audio like LPCM will not pass over s/pdif (your optical connector). So if you want the benefits of that you will have to use HDMI to your receiver. In other words, there is no way to get the HD audio format into an AVP. |
