The 927 is just hilariously ahead of all this. Way way way more resolution and dynamics. It is a proper full range, accurate, limitless sound. I don’t know which TT can better it, yet. May be a Kondo Ginga?
@pani
As a matter of interest the Kondo Ginga is a cheap copy of the Final Audio VTT1 built in the 70's which has been my reference TT for the past 30+ years. As you have found with the Technics SP10mk3 vs the 927, the Final is in another league.
Does not mean that DD is bad, it just means the the Final is exceptional.
David Karmeli has the EMT 927, along with American Sound AS2000, Micro Seiki 8000's, Goldmund Reference and SP10mk3. He describes the Technics as a toy in comparison to the others.
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For all you posters discussing turntable speed accuracy It is not possible to measure wow & flutter using a test record.
If you use a rotary function generator to measure the turntable performance directly off the platter, the results will be more accurate than any test record.
For an explanation from someone who actually has a degree in physics and acoustical engineering - Bruce Thigpen of Eminent Technology.
Here is Bruces explanation from his Eminent Technology website.
Bruce has many patents and inventions including his unique air bearing tonearm, rotary subwoofer, vacuum platter as implenmented by SOTA, and many others.
Bruce Thigpen -
Reviewers have incorrectly attributed wow and flutter to the turntable. Since the advent of the belt drive turntable, wow and flutter has been purely a function of tonearm geometry, the phono cartridge compliance with the elastomeric damping, and surface irregularities in the LP. In our own lab we have measured many high quality turntables using a rotary function generator directly connected to the platters of the turntables.
The measured results are usually an order of magnitude better than the results using a tonearm and test record (conventional wow and flutter method). Further proof exists if you take two tonearms, one straight line and one pivoted and mount them both on the same turntable. The straight line tonearm will give a wow and flutter reading with the same cartridge/test record of about 2/3 to 1⁄2that of the pivoted arm (.03% < .07% to .05%). This is because the straight line tonearm has a geometry advantage and lateral motion does not result in stylus longitudinal motion along the groove of the record.
Another proof is to take two different cartridges, one high compliance and one low compliance, and take measurements with both using the same turntable and tonearm. The reading of wow and flutter will be different. All wow and flutter readings are higher than the rotational consistency of the turntable.
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@lewm couple of things to clarify first.
1. The 927 is owned by my cousin and there we also compared it to Nantais Reference Lenco and Dr.Feickert Firebird. There was no DD in that room.
2. I had in my room, Technics SP10Mk2, Mk3, Nantais Reference Lenco & Loricraft Garrard 301 side by side for some time. Recently I had a EMT 938 (DD) in my room for a month.
3. I don’t like DDs. I am neutral towards EMT brand (unlilke fanboys). But in this hobby I always keep an open and honest mind to accept what is good about even things I hate.
So, a quick recap of what I said earlier. The Sp10 Mk2 is not in the same league as any of the other TTs in this discussion, simply because it doesnt have the macro dynamic range of others. It sounds small. The SP10 Mk3 approaches the idlers in dynamics and overall grandeur, has more resolution than Lenco and Garrard but sounds drier. I chose Nantais Lenco as the best of the lot. Quieter and more resolved than Garrard, More fluid, and approaches resolution of good DDs. The 938 which I heard recently is at SP10 Mk3 level, but less dry. If I have to choose a DD among all these, it will be 938.
Coming back to 927. In my cousin's room, it made the Lenco and Feickert sound ordinary, basic, nice but portable players. It had much more resolution than the $10k Feickert, much better micro dynamics than any TT under 30k I have till this date. Macro dynamics is final level, you cannot expect anything more. It live size, full range sound, like the best horn speakers give you. Tone is perfect, no coloration, PRAT is exact, no distortion, soundstage width and depth is panoromic. These things are not easy to explain. One may think many TTs do it. But when you hear it all put together with the most natural high resolution balance, you know it is the END.
BTW, I am using Nantais Lenco as my primary TT.
@dover I had heard about Final Audio TT but didnt know Kondo Ginga is a copy. Cheap copy? I can’t say. There was nothing cheap about it. It was the only other TT apart from 927 for which I felt I should earn more. Unfortunately Kondo made only 30 of them because the cost of production was too high and its $120k price tag, they didnt have the sales team to move it. And what Karmeli said about Sp10Mk3 compared to this other TTs is very similar to what I am trying to say indirectly.
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@pani
I pretty much agree with your descriptions of the sound of the TT’s.
As far as the Final goes, the original, which I have, was made using a super expensive material called superplastic zinc alloy ( SPZ ). This material was developed in Japan in the 1970’s for earthquake proofing buildings - it is a metal like material that has superplasticity at room temperature and any vibration between 10hz and 100hz is absorbed and dissipated by grain sliding within the material molecular structure - in other words vibrations at these frequencies disappear. The material is no longer available, it was too expensive to produce.You can hear the benefit - this turntable has the least smearing of notes of any TT that I have heard.
Here’s the family history I posted on youtube
The second generation ( silver chassis ) has a lesser bearing and aluminium chassis instead of the SPZ. The Kondo is better than the second generation but not as good as the original. On my VTT1 ( 2nd TT in the video with the FR64S attached ) the motor is driven off of a separate power amplifier that is driven off the sine/cosine wave generator sitting next to the motor.
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Very very interesting @dover , a video with the TT playing would be lovely :-)
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@pani
Yes I plan to later this year - I'm in the process of moving.
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Pani, Which version of "Nantais Lenco" do you own? I used to own one, too, and I used to follow Jean's meanderings on various websites. He was or is constantly upgrading his ideas on how to improve the base table, so his work has a temporal quality to its quality. Mine was in a massive plywood plinth (I'd guess 50 to 75 lbs total weight) with the OEM Lenco metal chassis bolted directly into the plywood to dampen it. Then I entered my "slate phase", in the early 2000s, and this led to my selling the Nantais Lenco. I found an NOS Lenco and harvested only its motor, idler wheel, and platter. I had a slate plinth cut for me and I mounted the motor on a PTP top plate, made by Peter Reinders, who is also a boon to Lenco-lovers. The PTP is bolted firmly to the slate surface. I purchased a huge bearing from a guy in England, and I had the platter spray painted with a dampening paint, plus I took a cue from Win Tinnon and further dampened the platter with O-rings straddling the circumference,. My slate slab weighs about 65 lbs. I did not try to devise a removable tonearm mount, so I use only surface mounted tonearms on the Lenco, specifically a Dynavector DV505. The piece de la resistance was the addition of a Phoenix Engineering motor controller and Roadrunner. I am not one to make definitive statements about one TT being better than another of my TTs, but this Lenco competes in every way with anything else I own.
I apologize for the question, because it is an obvious one, but in your comparisons among the tables you mention, were you using the same tonearm and cartridge in all cases, or even in some cases? Thanks.
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@lewm : " were you using the same tonearm and cartridge in all cases, or even in some cases? "
That same question was already posted and till now he does not gives an answer. Well it’s his privilege answer or not but with out that answer his evaluation means almost " nothing ".
@dover carmelli is a seller/ manufacturer and totally biased, only what he has on sale works as no other items.
R.
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Dear friends @dover : " the Technics as a toy in comparison to the others..."
As you and from over 40 years ago japanese audiophiles have a fascination for heavy weigth TT units as more heavy thde better and normally all those heavy items are BD designs. Your unit as the American Sound are ones of the heavy ones and don't forget the today TechDas/Micro Seiki top of the line: heavy gold and silver everywhere. As I said a fascination for the " eyes " and even in rest position any one can say when looking at: Wow and stupid wow because heavy mass in rest is ok but heavy mass on play develops internal vibrations/resonances as any body in motion it does not matters how heavy it's.
Other significant issue is that japanese are more or less accustomed to tubes electronics, exactly like you, and with tubes every thing can goes " wrong ".
Yes, the vintage DD unit as Technics looks only looks as toy against those dinosaurs.
The Technics like is a Porch 911 and your heavy weigths units that several of you are in love with are like a Linconl Capri or a Bodeville or Cadillac De Ville.
I don't like tubes and certainly dinosaurus and Boneville cars.
Nothing wrong with what you all like, it's your privilege as mine.
R.
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The Technics like is a Porch 911 and your heavy weigths units that several of you are in love with are like a Linconl Capri or a Bodeville or Cadillac De Ville.
Wrong, the Technics is a lot more reliable than a Porsche 911 and requires far less maintenance.
I don't buy hifi on looks, or theory, I buy based on listening.
I've had the SP10mk3 in the house - got offered one for free from the widow of an old friend. Passed it on. Nice deck but only 2nd place in this house. Simply doesn't have the clarity that my reference has.
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We can call a Technics anything. It is a good DD. But it is not a end of the story sound. An EMT 950 is totally another level, a proper end of the story DD. 927 is a final TT for the most discerning ears with unlimited resources. Bringing in Technics to this discussion is like bringing in a 3 way floorstander in the party of 5 way full range horn speakers.
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Pani, where and in what context were you able to audition a 950?
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@lewm : the important issue in that context with the 927/950 pani opinion in his comparisons against other TTs still is the same: listened he all those TTs with the same tonearm//LP tracks/even SPL and if all those TTs were " seated " in a similar platfform?
@pani , does not yet gives the answers even that two of us already asked.
I don't know for you but with out those critical comparison information seems to me that his opinios lost credibility because does " facts " in the comparison only he and his friend knows.
Don't you think?
R.
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@lewm 2 of my close buddies own EMT 950. One of them infact has all the EMT models, TD124, SP10 Mk2, Garrard 401 in the same setup.
The tonearm and cart on the 950 is a EMT 929 + TSD 15 SFL on both my friends systems. Phonostage is internal with matching SUT. One of them uses JBL 4343 and the other uses 4 way Altec horn system
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@rauliruegas I will answer all your question. But your questions have an underlying tone of disrespect if things doesnt match your beliefs. Believe me there are many ears better than yours and mine, only if we have an open mind to accept other's experiences, we stand to gain something.
Anyway here are some details from my memory.
The 927, Nantais Lenco and Feickert Firebird were placed on the same BOX Furniture rack. 927 had 2 tonearms, 997 and Acoustic Systems Axiom. Cartridge were a combination of TSD-15, JSD Platinum & Phasemation PP-2000. The Axiom was swapped between 927, Nantais Lenco & Feickert and we also swapped the EMT and Phasemation carts various times to get the feel. The phasemation and EMT ultimately are not very different in terms of tone but phasemation seems to make things more refined and hifi, more pin-point. EMT carts are a little more flamboyant and raw, more studio like.
When I had the Technics SP10-Mk2, Mk3, Nantais Reference Lenco and Loricraft Garrard 301, the tonearm was a 47 Labs RS-A1 with Audio Technica ART-9, rack was a Hutter Rack from Austria. Later I also had EMT HSD-006 cartridge to replace the ART-9
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That must have been fun. You mention that the internal phono stage of the EMT927 was used. Was it also used with the other 3-4 TTs in the shoot-out? It is unusual that you and your friends were nearly as enthusiastic about the 950 as you were about the 927. Most EMT aficionados who love the 927 don't love the 950 or any other DD TT so much. But this means absolutely nothing. The 950 is "in reach" of most well heeled audiophiles, whereas a really well restored 927 is almost in oligarch territory now. Two I found on line are well over $20,000. That matters when one is doing comparisons. I am not a big fan of the speakers you mention, but they certainly are not terrible.
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@lewm the system in which we compared the 927, Feickert and Nantais Lencowe used an EMT JPA66 Mk2 phono. It was not the 927 internal phono. So we had a common ground to compare the the three TT
950 is owned by 2 of my other buddies. They don't have a 927. But both of them aspire to have one some day. The 950 is being used with internal phono.
Sonically, 950 is the best DD I have heard. No one i know prefers a 950 over 927. Not even in the same ball park. As I said, 927 feels like there is nothing more to ask for.
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Update: I have now heard the EMT 950 and 927 in the same room (another friend bought it). Both using the TSD-15 cartridge and internal phono stages. The 927 is clearly superior. It sounds bigger, more fluid, more explosive. 950 has the EMT presentation of big bold sound but ultimately sounds a bit dry (like every DD)
So 927 remains unbeaten
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950 is a poor TT.
There are many versions of 927 depending on the restore. Of 4 I heard only 1 done by the Dutch restorer was good and they go for 50k +. They are great for jazz and rock and sound big and bold with good groove, but don’t have the nuance for classical similar to modern belts. This can be addressed to a large extent by having a cartridge like the Dava field coil which
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At this point in time, the 927 is like Captain Ahab’s white whale. The one you might find may not bear all the sonic virtues of the one you are seeking, and it might bankrupt you nevertheless (not quite as bad as what happened to Ahab, I admit).
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