Newer Class D and Icepower specifically meet the criteria, are becoming increasingly popular and are more practical for most, and may be undercutting the value of the traditional heavy, power consuming and expensive to build well monster amp, which was always a niche item to start with.
I know in my case I needed the high current, high power amp to drive my larger speakers properly and to the max. I considered Class D or traditional monster amp. I decided to go Class D and have no regrets. Every time I listen, the sound just blows me away.
In general, greater efficiency is the wave of the future. That can mean a more efficient amp to deliver the power and current needed as in Class D or more efficient speakers that require less power and perhaps also current. Either approach or even both in conjunction to some extent can greatly help bring an otherwise under performing system up to par |
unsound,
Could be.
Regardless of which approach makes more headway, more efficient amps or more efficient speakers efficiency always rules when it comes to doing more for less.
I suspect a consumer has more and perhaps also more cost effective options regarding speakers currently building around a high efficiency amp like a Class D than one does going the high efficiency speaker route, especially if one cares about good full range performance and not giving up the lowest octaves. |
I have been considering trying a lower powered tube integrated in my second system where I already have a decent sub and fairly efficient tube friendly speakers (triangle Titus XS) currently driven to good effect at up to moderate volume by a "flea powered" 20 watt vintage Yamaha receiver. A similar 20 watts or so of soft clipping tube power might be a nice step forward. My inefficient but sweet sounding Stax sr-80 electret "earspeakers" I use on that system might benefit as well. |
"Your Stax "ear speakers" are, ehem, a different can of worms."
No doubt.
They are similar to electrostat and other planar speakers, very inefficient, and require some power (not necessarily current) to drive well.
I do not listen that loud with these though. A 20w/ch or so soft clipping tube integrated could work quite well for these I suspect as well as with the Triangle monitor + sub combo. |
Another reason that there may not be as many high current electronics as you might think could be that they are only of concern to "audiophiles" looking to max out performance of there system. Most people get by fine with less than industrial strength SS amplifiers in whatever gear they happen to listen to.
It's only the audiophile camp, a small niche itself, that is concerned with things like high current, high efficiency, tube amps, etc.
I will say though that within that niche, tube gear and high efficiency speakers to go along seem to be experiencing a renaissance and cutting into the high current SS amp/lower efficiency speakers domain compared to the recent past, so that would have to have some effect on how much of any particular design one sees.
I think Atmasphere is a big force behind this, at least on this site. He apparently makes some very nice gear, believes strongly in what he does and is a verbal champion of the approach, so kudos to him and the others who have helped breath some life back into the paradigm! |
Foster,
Sorry to hear your still fighting bass and other issues. Your case is a tough one to get a handle on because I know you've tried so many things, including subs, and still have not yet scored completely.
Even if everything is matched well electronically, room acoustics and individual preferences still come into play in determining what sounds good.
Maybe a near field setup of some sort might be the best approach if you can get to that kind of setup in your room.
My best guess is the thing you need new most is a new room. Unfortunately, that is one of the hardest things to have to deal with.
My wife's very lively sun room, 12X12 with a cathedral ceiling, lots of windows and a hard tile floor is that way. What sounds spot on other rooms never quite gels completely in there. Generally there is too much bass and imaging and soundstage is not totally up to snuff. Fortunately for me that is only an auxiliary listening location so I am able to live with what I get there, though I have not given up on trying to get it perfect. |
In a tough room like my wife's sun room, options to achieve "perfect" sound are limited.
1) minimize the imperfections through tweaking and learn to live with it
2) have the room professionally analyzed and based on findings, do some combination of treatments and/or signal processing using a graphic or parametric equalizer
3) rely on near field listening
4) headphones
For 2, a newer possible variation these days that might prove effective is doing the needed signal processing in the digital rather than analog domain. That provides more flexibility and precision in whatever processing might be needed.
Ironically, directly below my wife's sunroom is my office where my gear lives and often serves as my main listening room. This is also 12X12, however I have not had problems getting whatever speakers I put in there to sound spot on.
There are other differences that I suppose help account for this:
1) I had the ceiling and walls in that room insulated when the house was built so as to have a place to liten without disturbing anyone. It also has a solid wood rather than hollow door for same purpose
2) standard 7' whatever drywall ceiling, actually lower towards rear where there is a conduit so ceiling is not flat
3) rigid concrete foundation floor with very thin but dense industrial grade carpet and padding
So I guess my point is that there is a lot of factors that go into how a room "sounds" and it can be hard to predict without actually hearing it. |
Foster,
The Class D/icepower BC ref1000m monoblocks I am using meet all your criteria except for price and power exceeds your stated range at 500w/ch into 8 ohms, which is generally more of a boon than a problem with most large full range speakers built to run all out at higher volumes.
The bass is absolute top notch in my opinion with any kind of music, have not heard anything better in terms of proper weight along with refinement/articulation, at least in my two well tuned rooms (one larger and one smaller). In the sunroom, anything I use that sounds balanced and right in those two rooms tend to go a bit boomy and bass heavy, which clearly indicates that the room is the thing that brings the performance level of an otherwise nicely balanced rig down a notch or two, at least in my case.
I think this is one of the amps that Tvad mentioned above that he has tried and found to deliver properly balanced sound.
I've tried every "good" speaker and amp combo I've owned current and past in that room and always similar results, OK but not great.
I haven't tried my realistic Minimus 7s taht I use over the summer on the deck though! THat might be worth trying! Smaller may be better in a case like this with overzealous room acoustics! |
Isn't clipping an even worse consequence than unbalanced frequency response alone?
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"But if you're not listening to acoustic music, and are of the RR family, then quality of sound isn't what you're after as much as volume of sound."
That's a very biased perspective.
There is high quality and lesser quality non acoustic music as well. Volume is part of it because that is the nature of the beast but not the whole story by a longshot.
I would argue that it is more costly and difficult to reproduce music that is meant to be loud and powerful accurately and convincingly than it is to reproduce acoustic music that you liten to normally at lower SPLs.
It's a mistake to discount music forms that one does not care for just because one does not care about them. They are forms of music people listen to as much or even more so in practice than others.
That kind of attitude is one way how audiophiles get a bad name. |
"Actually, my experience is that most audiophile speakers sound like crap at very loud levels. There are notable exceptions like Legacys, big Wilsons, and the top-of-the-line Revels, to list a few, but most don't, so I'm wondering what people think they need so much power for? "
Add OHM Walsh (omni) speakers to the list of exceptions.
These shine at lifelike levels but also require the power and juice to do it best. Part of this is the Walsh driver and teh omni design that fills the room with sound more like a live acoustic performance rather than directing all its energy at you and making you want to leave the room, like speakers at a rock concert.
Most people who have owned the over the years run them off more commonplace amplification and probably have never likely heard what they are capable of. That included myself as well until recently.
My Dynaudio monitors do not mind the power and current, but can also get by better without it, though they will never deliver the meat on the bones at higher levels like a pair of large, robust suitably powered full rangers. |
Audio research has some SS amps that come up in that price range that meet the criteria as I recall.
I strongly considered these when looking in a similar price range because AR is primarily known for its tube gear and their SS amps are seemingly designed to match well with higher impedance tube pre-amps and were generally well received.
If I had not decided to splurge as I did on the BCs, one of the ARC SS amps was probably next in line for me especially in that I already owned an ARC tube pre-amp. |
Yes, factor in the ability to handle transients as well as the more macro dynamic/loudness aspects and the case for making sure your amp does not break a sweat doing it's job one way or another goes way up.
I'm not an expert on amp design by any stretch, but what I do know based on experience and reading tells me in my gut that this is the right approach. |
If you decide to go for an inegrated, the Krell 300i or 400i if you can squeeze it could be an interesting choice.
I have heard these and was quite impressed running both full range Martin Logan and Focal Profile speakers.
Krell is known for providing a nice full low end and having excellent clarity and resolution. That is what I recall hearing as well. Extremely transparent with holographic like imaging as well, at least in the big, open and airy display room that I heard it in. |
interesting, but unfortunately, simplified theoretical scenarios are not very enlightening regarding what really matters playing real music.
Having a well made amp that is in no risk of breaking a sweat in practice is simply one of the best and simplest strategies to pursue in putting together a system. The actual benefits may vary, but it is an insurance policy at worst.
Few other decisions in audio can be made this easily, so doing it provides a firm playing field for mucking with all the rest as needed. |
I was listening to a nuclear "expert" from a well recognized American University explain on CNN a few days ago early on in the Japan nuclear fiasco why theoretically there was nothing to really be worried about with the troubled reactors in Japan.
These reactors had containment structures, no problem!
So much for that theory....... |
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When I was looking at these kinds of amps for my rig, I looked at power ratings into various loads and specs indicating current delivery capability explicitly. In general, the higher current capable amps seemed to correlate pretty well though not exactly with the ability to at least mostly double down. I recall amps with higher current delivery capabilities almost always did this better at least than those indicating low current in general.
I also tending to look for higher damping factor to go along with this for my particular speakers.
This approach has worked out well for me.
I had a low current, high power 360 w/ch (to 8 ohm) carver m4.ot amp prior to a Musical Fidelity A3CR that delivered 120w/ch. The MF sounded more balanced with my "current hungry" speakers than the Carver, though the Carver could go usably louder.
The BC monoblocks I have currently raised the power level level to 500w/ch and also promised good current delivery, doubling down as well based on specs.
The results were exactly as expected. Good tonal balance plus ability to go louder and clearer. Mission accomplished! |
