mapman said:
"
Shouldn’t any true hi end system be able to reproduce any recording accurately, including very loud ones? "
I do not understand the concept that better equipment can compensate for compressed dynamic range (the end result of excessive loudness). If it isn't there how can you fix it? |
Thanks lowrider, great article.
In the context of contemporary pop music as heard on large radio stations, I would say yes, it does all sound the same.
I saw an article about that hit pop song "Meet Me In The Middle". It indicated that it had a whole team of writers and was written from the ground up to be a radio hit with demographics and stats being primary criteria.
I don't have any problem with this per se. I don't have to listen to that sort of pablum or that sort of radio station. (A pop station plays in one area of my workplace and in an 8 hour workday you can hear the same song as much as 5 times).
Where I do have a problem is when this sort of production/engineering carries over to where it does not belong. I think about bands that are serious musicians making high quality music outside of the mainstream who still produce loud highly compressed DR CDs.
Alabama Shakes, Gary Clark, Jr and Tedeschi Trucks come to mind. Really talented, serious, thoughtful musicians. Heck, Tedeschi Trucks have their own studio and their CDs still show significant DR compression compared to hallmark production quality artists like Steely Dan and Mark Knopfler.
I don't know what the answer is. I just hope that serious musicians will seek to stand out not just on the quality and craft of their art but also in the production quality. None of the artists I mentioned above are ever going to see significant radio air time. And I don't get the impression that it costs any more to show discretion with the loudness settings. I'm assuming that issue is driven by executives or new/young/lazy engineers. |
Just watched a clip from a video interview of Mark Knopfler regarding his "Tracker" album. The setting is his studio with its large analog mixing board. Very little computer stuff to be seen other than his laptop. He indicates that this is where he records. Maybe that is why the SQ of his stuff is so good.
However, he did not say specifically how the music was produced/engineered so I can't say for sure what the process was. |
lowrider57 said:
"The lows are pushed up and and the highs are limited by not allowing any peaks, they are all at the same level.
The result is no range in the bass, no range in the highs. All instruments lose their separation including vocals and all are at the same level, which means the same volume when played."
After doing a lot of reading on this topic this afternoon I think the statement above really simplifies and clarifies how to look at this complex topic.
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mapman said:
" Compressed dynamics and excessive loudness are two different but often related things. "
That makes sense to me. It is my understanding that it is pushing the loudness that compresses the dynamic range.
And:
" I wouldn’t worry about it too much unless you are an audiophile who imbibes mostly on mainstream/pop music."
I guess it all depends on what you call other people’s music. ;-)
I do not consider Tedeschi Trucks as mainstream or pop. Likewise with Gary Clark, Jr and Alabama Shakes.
The dynamic range in their CDs and downloads all look pretty bad from a DR standpoint. That’s my point. What we are ascribing to throw-away music is being seen in more serious ’artistic’ efforts. And it is a shame because all of their work could/should be appreciated at an audiophile level.
And:
" If it’s a catchy enough tune, isn’t that enough?"
Agreed. I’m into a new band called The Struts. Guitar heavy good-time glam-pop that sounds good on my car stereo. Not too worried about its DR or loudness (which is not as bad as I was expecting.) |
djones51, I hope that will be true but according to what I've read, radio stations have been doing this for years and most people who listen to Apple Music probably have Sound Check on and don't even know it.
This has not slowed down the loudness wars as far as I can tell.
And that is what seems so peculiar. SQ is being lost for the sake of loudness despite the fact that the loudness is not accomplishing the purpose that it once had. In effect engineers are making an effort to do something that has no benefit _and_ sounds bad.
So one wonders why it is still such an issue. |
I think the theme from Star Wars was lifted largely from Dvorak's New World Symphony.
I don't think the point of this discussion is to say that all compression is bad. When it is used as a tool to improve a recording I don't think anyone objects.
But, let me repeat something I've been saying over and over again. This is not just an issue with pop throwaway music. The loudness wars have penetrated into music and artists who are and should be appreciated by audiophiles. In my naivety I find that shocking that such artists would allow that to happen to their work. The point being, as audiophiles we can't just look down our noses and assume this is only a problem for the Big Mac eaters and Yugo drivers. It is affecting our foie gras and BMWs too. |
I just got The Struts new CD Young and Dangerous released on the 26th. I've mentioned before that this is a new band that I like. It is glam/pop/rock. Their first CD was highly compressed and loud as heck. This album has some slightly more serious and thoughtful content so I was hoping it would be recorded better.
Popped it in the CDP and loudness was there immediately but I thought it was no worse or maybe slightly better than the first album. But the inevitable happens, you feel like you are missing something and that volume will help....this is rock music....but it doesn't, it makes it worse.
Sad about this because at first I thought this would just be a grooving in the car type album but I'm finding that there are some songs I might like to sit and listen to. As much as Queen for instance. But not with this recording.
Went to the DR database site not expecting to see the album there but someone has already tested it. Average DR is 5. Lowest is 4. Best is 6. About the same is the first album.
Oddly, even though they were loud live there was very little distortion and vocals were sharp and clear and there was excellent distinction between the instruments. The sound guy got the piano wrong a few times but that was not a loudness issue.
Just disgusted. |
I just got a used copy of Tedeschi Trucks' "Revelator" CD in the mail today.
The DR database gives it an average DR of 10 on the CD and 11 on the vinyl. You do notice the loudness a little. Other than that it sounds pretty good to me. Certainly not up there with what I consider my reference CDs (12-16 range and flawless production) but I'm perfectly satisfied with it. Clearly and immediately of superior sound quality (all other factors taken into account) compared to recordings in the 5-6 range. Glad they made the effort. Wish they would take it up to the next level. |
I think a lot of folks are focusing too much on the title and not the content of the OP’s post and the link he provided. The point is that pop music is being produced in a formulaic fashion the likes of which have not been seen before, much the way a team of suits and scientists figure out the next new hamburger for McDonald-King to sell.
Yes, there were always industry pressures to keep songs short and make them sound like the most recent hit. But things are more ’advanced’ than that now.
As to what our parents said about music: well, they were often right. Elvis was vulgar, Ozzy was disturbing, Kiss was disgusting and a lot of it does/did sound the same. My slightly racist father (r.i.p.) also immediately identified Led Zeppelin belting out of my bedroom as ’black’ music. It was years before I realized he was right and that hearing that in their music was the ultimate compliment......even though he did not intend it.
Anyway, I find it remarkable that my two kids (24 and 27 years old) like and listen mostly to what I listen to. They disdain pop. My daughter likes some pop country, for which I give her a hard time. They think Van Morrison and Sam Cooke are heroes. |
