Why do you guys pursue a flat frequency response when you buy a subwoofer?
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Imo the first issue can be addressed by designing the subwoofer to have a native frequency response which slopes gently downwards by the approximate inverse of "typical" room gain, or 3 about dB per octave. I'm not saying this is the only way of addressing this issue, but imo it results in a reasonably good starting point. The second issue (rollercoaster in-room response) presents an interesting challenge. Opinions vary on how to address it." Duke, Can you name the popular opinions among sub manufacturers on how they think it should be addressed? Of course, more subs a.k.a an array of 4, 8 or 16 is great for business. But, are there other opinions out there? I currently have Rythmiks (room1) and HSUs (room2) at home and a BIC PL 200 II in my shop. The BIC is not flat and i saw some clowns arguing in a forum that the BIC is very very bad because of the peak in its spec! However, this budget BIC actually sounds pretty freaking good to me and i use it largely for music in my shop. As far as the manufacturers coming up with a flat response (Rythmiks, HSUs, SVS, etc), Is it just a "statement" that they are competent enough to come up with a flat response? (though it means jack sht after it goes in the room) |
@tomic601 , I agree on the forest of subwoofers issue in the house.... If the number rises above 2 in a room, i fear my wife will take a flamethrower to all of them. But, yeah i love Danny and his contributions. My dual Rythmiks are the model with Danny’s driver. At this point, i’m thinking if a) DIY might be the route to take....This requires the user to do a lot of research, is competent and has the time to take the DIY route. or b) If guys like Danny from GR research may tailor something for ya if you gave him a comprehensive set of measurements for the specific room with your subs.... But, i guess it may be impractical considering how busy guys like Danny are. It may be nice if some manufacturers could explore this business model. |
@tomic601 , @audiokinesis @erik_squires A lot of stuff you guys mention are steps i’ve already gone through over the ages. Both my rooms are treated with bass traps, absorption (ceiling, FR) and diffusion panels. Room 1 has 5.2 Elac Adante speakers and HSU subs powered by a Yamaha RX-A3080 (active bass management and all the frills on this Yamaha’s flagship made it easier for me) Preouts go to a Jungson 80W/ch class A chifi amp. I’ve gone the full 9 yards with REW, subcrawls, positioning, treatments and EQ to get fairly flat curves. I have a 2nd pair of Tekton Moab speakers as a standalone 2.0 system with the Jungson amp in this room (No subs, so it leaves the discussion). I listen to music 95% in either 4.2 or 5.2 and movies 5% in this setup. It works really well for me when i’m listening to surround mixes, movie/game composers (a genre i really like with orchestral elements tied to electronica), electronica, house, trance, etc Room2 was a nightmare that lasted months of tinkering. It is a 2.2 music setup with no bass management. 2 Yamaha Ns-F901s and Rythmik subs powered by a Yamaha A-S2100 integrated amp and Denafrips venus DAC. I use this room for several other genres of music. It took me a while to get these subs "blended in" as best as i could. I did the phase matching with the sub’s continuous phase adjustment feature with knowledge of both the sub and the speaker’s phase response (i measured it) at the crossover point. I crawled all over the place and the subs had to be located in a non-aesthetically pleasing position to sound right. I listen to many different genres of music a.k.a i’m not listening to 1 track over and over. They are not all recorded the same. If a recording’s off from a band i like, i am back to tweak OCD again. My perception is that subs are made to cater mainly to the Hometheater market (set the crossover on the receiver and the movie explosions go boom boom boom all day long!! easy as pie!). But, it seems to be much harder if you’re a music aficionado. My perception is that these manufacturers leave dudes who are music aficionados out in the cold. A competent speaker designer like..say Andrew Jones, for instance, has so many variables available to him when he’s designing drivers, cabinet, crossovers, blending them, etc. He comes out with a wholesome design in the end. Now, when subs are being integrated with these speakers, the sub appears to be an afterthought. A end user like myself who’s not a speaker designer or professional audio engineer, is somehow being asked by sub manufacturers to make it all work together/figure it out somehow. They release a flat curve to make themselves look good and sell a product. At the end, its a customer like myself who has to go to enormous lengths and months of tinkering and treatment to make it all work right. I may have very few variables to work with actually (than what a speaker designer may have available when he’s designing something from the ground up). Let’s see, a sub volume control and a crossover if my amp doesn’t have bass management, that’s it. To my knowledge, only Rythmik even offers a phase control that’s more than just a 0-180 flip switch. The rest is...crawl around, throw a bass trap, etc and make it work somehow... Is my perception right or wrong gentlemen? |
@audiokinesis , Many hardcore audiophiles i know stick with 2 channel music systems, a.k.a, their high end turntables, DACs, integrated amps/monoblocks, etc with no bass management. These guys try subs and abandon them because they can't get it to integrate right. Many of them buy RELs because it is "supposed to" integrate better (tribal hearsay). But, when they realize that the RELs were hype but lame on delivery, they abandoned them as well. I sure would not want to add another adc/dac into the chain with a subpar DAC on something like miniDSP for bass management (when i have a Denafrips DAC in my 2 channel setup). Guys i know have waaaay more expensive speakers, DACs, monoblocks, etc on their 2 channel music setups than i do. They are probably not gonna do that either. It's almost like there's a huge disconnect here. But, of course, once you taste the ecstasy of a well-integrated sub, it's really hard to go back to music without one. I often find myself listening more in my room1 with active bass management (on my Yam A3080 receiver with the Jungson Class A preouts) than in my 2.2 room2 setup. There may be room for improvement or i may never get there with the tools I have in hand for room2. This might be a gross assumption. But, i think some of these 2 channel guys have waaay more cash to throw at a sub manufacturer than the average guy buying a sub for his hometheater. So, It may be a loaded market chunk which is out there i.e., if a manufacturer chooses to tap into it and cater to their systems better (monopoly for sure). More DOFs or.... whatever the R&D/solution may be to better integrate them...you would know better. |
@tomic601 , here are some tracks i use when i'm tinkering with it and listening for things (non compressed FLAC versions of these, 24bit 96khz when possible). Overall SPL levels are relatively high (farmhouse/no neighbors). Hans Zimmer - Mombasa https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPgPxGX6nNo Rom Di Prisco - Caverns of Suursonnabu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqKyS8WES7Y Jesper Kyd - Approaching Target 3 about 2.35 onwards https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NipZFlauZ8E Yaeji - After that https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tAtkZ9iVEwc Strappin young lad - love https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mL9Aohgd79I John Peasano - First Contact Protocol https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJO6i2b5pH8 |
