2. analog
  3. 1060660051

Why can't I hear 20 years of phono 'progress'??

How can this be??! A well-regarded 1980 Ortofon VMS20e MkII $150 mm cartridge in an ambivalently-regarded 1980 Thorens TD115 $430 turntable sounds identical to a highly-regarded 2002 Grado The Reference (high-output) $1200 cartridge in an equally-highly-regarded 2002 modded Rega Planar 25 $1275 turntable. Before you dismiss me as another naïve wacko, please read a little further.

I’ve been building a whole new system over the past year and a half, made critical auditions of dozens of components, and been quite satisfied with my 45yo ears and results. You can click on my system below for an OTT description, but with everything else in place, I’m listening to the carts through a fine BelCanto Phono1 -> AQ Emerald -> retubed Sonic Frontiers Line1 -> AQ Viper -> Steve McCormack-upgraded DNA0.5 -> AQ Bedrock -> Thiel 2.3 -> great room acoustics, or Headroom Max -> Stefan AudioArt Equinox -> Sennheiser HD600.

I’ve had the Rega-Grado paired for over two months, both items bought separately from A’gon. Cart has several hundred hours, P25 I installed the Expressimo counterweight, donut mat, snugged tonearm nut to plinth and set the speed to 33-1/3 with tape on the subplatter. FWIW, the Thorens has an upgraded mat and cables, record clamp and 10lbs of inert clay in the base, and new belts and styli over the years. The cartridges set up and align perfectly in both units, confirmed with test records. I know the 115/vms20 to be very synergistic, and, hum aside, had always thought the rb600/grado worked well together.

We’ve been just loving the sound of the Rega-Grado for those two months, so before I put the Thorens into storage I just wanted to remind myself what I had been listening to for 23 years.

That was a couple weeks and way too many hours of clinical listening ago. Despite swapping equipment stands, matching levels, and playing every type and quality of vinyl, I’ve never heard two pieces of equipment sound so identical, this after choosing between DACs, CD transports, digital and analog interconnects, vacuum tubes, headphone amps, preamps, etc.

Both the overall sit-back-and-relax musicality and every audiophile definition from general frequency balance and PRaT to bass articulation and depth retrieval are the same(!) The most I can say now is that on the best recordings with the most focused and careful listening, the P25 has more inner detail on vocals, more articulation on complex cymbal brushwork, and smoother massed strings. But most of the time I had to confirm this (barely) with headphones, it was below the resolution of the Thiels that have unraveled every other upstream difference before!

I’m sure a true Golden Ears with a $100K system could be more conclusive. The Thorens' semi-auto operation, sprung dustcover, detachable tonearm wands, replaceable styli, front-panel cueing, electronic speed control are all huge real-world advantages over the Rega-Grado hum, $800 retip and fully-manual operation. So what gives?? Have I done something blatantly wrong with the Rega? How can a 23yo $580 rig equal 5yo designs adding up to $2600? I always knew my 115/vms20 combo sounded good, but never expected this – I’d sell the P25/reference at a loss but for nobody believing that my archaic TT is even in the same sonic league! Plus the newer record player gives more 'street cred' to the whole system(?) All enlightened suggestions, useful comments and curious questions welcome. I've come to trust many of you and your inputs over the months, so don't be shy! No, I won’t be selling my Thorens at bluebook :-)
sdecker

Showing 4 responses by pbb

pbb
1,140 posts
 
Maybe because there has not been any progress in matters of turntables in the last twenty years?

Expectations is what this is all about. To be a true audiophile you have to believe that the slightest change will produce HUGE differences. I think that your observations are as valid as that of those who proclaim a new level of audio Nirvana at every turn.

If enjoyment of music is the true goal, thank your lucky star and buy more records. If you are smitten by the audio thing, you will get numerous suggestions as to why you should be unsatisfied and what you should buy to get a proper fix.

To quote the Stones: "Love is just a shot away, it's just a kiss away".
pbb
1,140 posts
 
TWL, your quick count is wrong. Are you serious when you think that people posting on this site are representative of audiophiles? Regarding the analog tt, you sort of remind me of the Monty Python skit with the parrot as dead as a doornail at the bottom of the cage and the fellow trying to convince the other guy by saying: "this parrot is not dead, it's only sleeping". To you it seems to be a religion, to the rest of the folks it's only a damn record player. Don't get your knickers in a twist. Best regards. One of the three.
pbb
1,140 posts
 
Mr. Zaikesman, your contention that the issue with these two analogue front-ends sounding the same to the original poster being put to the test by suggesting "the next step is to isolate all the independent variables" is entirely laudable. I simply wish that all evaluation of audio gear be done in that fashion. As I see it all, repeat all, of the so-called reviews of equipment that I lay eyes upon, be they from pros at TAS or Stereophile or enthusiasts on sites such as these, never, repeat never, abide by that credo. I could cite very many examples but have no wish to bore you. You call my various interventions "predictable". I will simply say in my defence that they are consistent, quite cogent, reasonable and well informed. Polite, is another story. Needling, I take as a compliment. I keep reading that no one has any business posting opinions in favour of digital in an analogue forum. Unlike AA, I have never seen that Audiogon is actually presented as a folder with numerous tabs. Yes, if one is to start a thread, one chooses such a "tab", but thereafter, and correct me if I am wrong, everything is presented in a seamless way. If one were to read all the various blurbs I have posted, the reasonable conclusion would be that I am not against anything in particular, save and except what I consider to be folly. Insofar as the venerable vinyl LP is concerned, my only true objection is the pronouncement of people proclaiming it to be superior in every way to the other way of doing things, more often than not by the use of misinformation and the most specious of arguments. TWL's argument about inflation is one such specious argument. To take what is a general measure of inflation and to apply it to audio equipment is disingenuous. The prices of staples (food, lodging, clothing, etc.) have increased way more than the cost of manufactured goods such as television receivers, VCRs, washing machines etc. No, the argument presented (and that is not limited to turntables/arms/cartridges) by true-blue audiophiles in response to someone honestly saying that he/she hears no significant difference is invariably that the component(s) being evaluated are not up to snuff and that something higher up in the good, better, best continuum should be auditioned and purchased. If by saying that when someone reaches a point of satisfaction with the equipment, the purchase of software should be given primary status bothers you and it is not considered as the best and most constructive advice someone can give, than your statement that it is all about music rings a bit hollow. For sake of argument, even admitting that TWL's pronouncement on there being only two or three left not adhering to the "Analogue is King" mantra on this site is correct, it only shows how discussion is not the order of the day here. A closed shop is what is aimed for. Like I have often repeated: you eat what you want, I'll eat what I want. Good day.
pbb
1,140 posts
 
Doug, I never do it that way. I usually look up new threads in "New Today" or "Recent Discourse". To see what people have responded to my banter and very occasional rants, I go to "My Threads". BTW, I still don't think that Audiogon is set up with titled forums to squelch discussion. Audio is now a minefield or a swamp or a series of gated communities, take your pick. It's a pity. I still plan on installing some kind of acoustically transparent but opaque curtain between my listening position and my equipment, so convinced am I that the mere fact that when one sees the stuff it colours one's judgment of the quality of sound reproduction. Maybe I will pay someone to stealthily change the equipment now and again, for progressively cheaper items to see how low I can go! You probably heard the story about the audiophile being tremendously impressed by a system playing in someone's room thinking it was powered by one of the sacred cows only to find that the power amp hidden in a cabinet was a Quad 405. Well, anticipation works that way. Within wide enough limits, if you think you can hear it, you will whether or not it's there. If the original poster is satisfied with his observation, why can't it be taken at face value? Kudos to Sean for proposing that notion. The most important link in the audio chain is probably one's imagination. Which does not mean it all sounds the same, but that's another story.
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