Why are subwoofers so polarizing?

A few hours, the owner of the Velodyne had done the room acoustic settings. So I do not know which setting. Also at show's Velodyne did not convince me. I Always do 2 channel testing. The sub needs to be syngron with the frontspeakers. And instruments and voices need to stay small in proportion. Above 80 hz low freq. become touchable. I use my sub from 16hz till 140hz. This is possible because the sub is fast as a rocket. Wenn you have slow sub's like Rel above 80hz they become uncontrolable. Why? Because they are toooooooo slow. I sold many Monitor Audio sub's to clients who bought Rel sub's in the past. It is very simple to compare. The difference is so big you cannot go back anymore to the slow respons.

Bo, Again, how much time did you spend dialing in the Velodyne's and which program did you use?

It was with 2 DD18 sub's. With there own measurement. The material will Always be the problem of the speed. You cannot change this. For surround Velodyne is fine. For stereo I would not even want it for free. Or even wenn I get money on top to keep it at home. Respons is the keyfactor. How fast a unit can move wenn it is driven. Speed is were it is about, not how low it goes. A better speed will Always give you a better integration with the speakers. Weather you play stereo or even Multi channel. Soon I will get the new Watchdog pure silver sub interconnect from Audioquest. This will even improve it further in speed and accuracy.

Bo, how much time did you spend dialing in the (which) Velodyne and which program did you use?

"Home theater represents everything that 2 channel does not. It's quantity over quality. 2 channel audio is all about quality over quantity. Home theater is for the ignorant masses that think big explosions are just so freakin cool they can hardly stand it. Because of the cromagnon target audience of home theater, subwoofers need not have any kind of fidelity. They just have to be loud and vibrate a lot."

Apparently you haven't heard a good multichannel system or recording. There's ignorant masses, and as you demonstrate, ignorant individuals.

The best subwoofers in speed are all closed. 2nd the bassunit needs to be on the front side. They way I use Audyssey Pro this is a pre. With downfiring or side firing I do not get the sharp stealth integration I want. Wenn you heard the level in speed what I have every other way is too slow. All my clients understand it directly. It is that convincing. The material Velodyne uses is what them make slow. For movies it is ok, but for stealth speed is it too slow. I would not even want them for free. I could sell it to clients. Because I can get it for the best prices. But I Always give a negative advise. Why? Because I want my clients to get only the best. Good is never good enough for me, it is that simple!!

This is not about measuring. Instruments and voices are in real very small and direct to point out. Wenn you already have a system what is capable of giving an exeptional sharp individual focus of instruments and voices with the right dimensions. Wenn you use a Velodyne sub even with there own Room Optimization system normally instruments are not that sharp focussed anymore. Often instruments become bigger. The only thing I like of the Velodyne sub's is that this roomcorrection system gets of the low freq. issues. But it is still not syngron with the music like the Rel subwoofers. The material Rel and Velodyne sub's use is heavier than the material Monitor Audio uses. The respons of the unit of my PLW-15 is a lot faster. Monitor Audio also uses a very big magnet. At the show were I used the PLW-15. Many people thought that I did not use the subwoofer. I asked why they thought I was not using it. Because they never heard a subwoofer what was this well integrated. It was new for them.

Bo, I'm interested in your testing with REL and Velodyne.

I had a chance to spend a few months with an expensive REL Studio III, JL Audio 113, and a Velodyne DD-18. The only measuring available to me was the Velodyne's built in Room Optimization system (using the REL line level input only).

I've heard you refer to this issue you have with what you call speed and wondering how you measured it? With the Velodyne system one is able to adjust arrive time and phase which can have a dramatic affect on what I perceive as speed.

I have found phase can change from track to track within an album recording. Surprisingly, there is little to no mention of this in subwoofer reviews I've read.

It's usually noticeable with the Bass drum being in or out of phase. With the Velodyne a simple push of a button on the remote you can hear the difference on the fly.

Or are you refereeing to the general characteristic of enclosure design such as the difference between sealed or vented, small or large driver, etc.?

isn't everything??

I suspect that there are 3 main reasons:

1). High end audio was spawned ca. 1970 as a reaction to Japanese solid state electronics. The high end argument was "simpler is better". Skip the tech approach and banish unnecessary circuit embellishment. Bye bye tone controls. Subwoofers involve more devices in the chain, so they were contrary to the philosophy of the time

2) Subwoofers are hard to set up right and often suck when set up wrong. Many people form judgements after hearing bad set-ups

3) The easiest way IME to get a good set up is with a software bass management package like Audyssey. This, of course, requires a visit to the dark side - digital (or digitized analog) audio. You know how that plays with many in this community

Between those 3 factors, I believe you'll find most of the answer to your question

Marty

I understand you very well. I had many big speakers like the B&W 800S. For stereo use many subwoofers were all too slow. I would not even want it for free in my system. I sold a lot of Rel sub's to clients. For me it was too slow and I hated the quality it gave. But.....these days the world has become different. I do a lot of measurements with Audyssey and in particular Audyssey pro. With the PLW-15 from Monitor Audio and my way of Audyssey Pro I have the stealth low freq, I ever dreamed of how I would want it to be. In my system you do not hear the sub, it is fully inegrated in the system. I use it to 140hz. Instruments and voices become more musical and touchable. This subwoofer is superior in speed compared to the slow ( as hell) Rel and Velodyne sub's. All the tests I did with these sub's all failled.

Isn't everything about this business polarized?

I've come to think that a simple 2 or 2.5 way with midwoofers and a seperate sub or two is more practical and flexible than a 3-way with big woofers. That doesn't necessarily imply little satellites. It's just that some of these little midwoofers are damn good and the cabinet doesn't have to be huge and 300 lbs.

It's because the subwoofer is the domain of the enemy, home theater. Home theater represents everything that 2 channel does not. It's quantity over quality. 2 channel audio is all about quality over quantity. Home theater is for the ignorant masses that think big explosions are just so freakin cool they can hardly stand it. Because of the cromagnon target audience of home theater, subwoofers need not have any kind of fidelity. They just have to be loud and vibrate a lot. So, subwoofers got a reputation among audiophiles for being total garbage (and the vast majority are). Are there good ones, yes. Can they work in a 2 channel system, yes, but its not easy. Low bass is by far the hardest part of the frequency range to get right. That's why you see a lot of audiophile speakers don't even try to deal with sub 50 hz.

I am on the opposite camp. In my many years of audio I have always used subwoofers with small and large speakers, but I only like augmenting, speaker-level-connection subwoofers such as REL and MJ Acoustics. When well blended to come "from underneath the mains" as an old REL brochure read, they will improve any speaker in my experience. And the most improvement is not primarily on bass, but on ambiance and soundstaging.