I understand you very well. I had many big speakers like the B&W 800S. For stereo use many subwoofers were all too slow. I would not even want it for free in my system. I sold a lot of Rel sub's to clients. For me it was too slow and I hated the quality it gave. But.....these days the world has become different. I do a lot of measurements with Audyssey and in particular Audyssey pro. With the PLW-15 from Monitor Audio and my way of Audyssey Pro I have the stealth low freq, I ever dreamed of how I would want it to be. In my system you do not hear the sub, it is fully inegrated in the system. I use it to 140hz. Instruments and voices become more musical and touchable. This subwoofer is superior in speed compared to the slow ( as hell) Rel and Velodyne sub's. All the tests I did with these sub's all failled. |
This is not about measuring. Instruments and voices are in real very small and direct to point out. Wenn you already have a system what is capable of giving an exeptional sharp individual focus of instruments and voices with the right dimensions. Wenn you use a Velodyne sub even with there own Room Optimization system normally instruments are not that sharp focussed anymore. Often instruments become bigger. The only thing I like of the Velodyne sub's is that this roomcorrection system gets of the low freq. issues. But it is still not syngron with the music like the Rel subwoofers. The material Rel and Velodyne sub's use is heavier than the material Monitor Audio uses. The respons of the unit of my PLW-15 is a lot faster. Monitor Audio also uses a very big magnet. At the show were I used the PLW-15. Many people thought that I did not use the subwoofer. I asked why they thought I was not using it. Because they never heard a subwoofer what was this well integrated. It was new for them. |
The best subwoofers in speed are all closed. 2nd the bassunit needs to be on the front side. They way I use Audyssey Pro this is a pre. With downfiring or side firing I do not get the sharp stealth integration I want. Wenn you heard the level in speed what I have every other way is too slow. All my clients understand it directly. It is that convincing. The material Velodyne uses is what them make slow. For movies it is ok, but for stealth speed is it too slow. I would not even want them for free. I could sell it to clients. Because I can get it for the best prices. But I Always give a negative advise. Why? Because I want my clients to get only the best. Good is never good enough for me, it is that simple!! |
It was with 2 DD18 sub's. With there own measurement. The material will Always be the problem of the speed. You cannot change this. For surround Velodyne is fine. For stereo I would not even want it for free. Or even wenn I get money on top to keep it at home. Respons is the keyfactor. How fast a unit can move wenn it is driven. Speed is were it is about, not how low it goes. A better speed will Always give you a better integration with the speakers. Weather you play stereo or even Multi channel. Soon I will get the new Watchdog pure silver sub interconnect from Audioquest. This will even improve it further in speed and accuracy. |
A few hours, the owner of the Velodyne had done the room acoustic settings. So I do not know which setting. Also at show's Velodyne did not convince me. I Always do 2 channel testing. The sub needs to be syngron with the frontspeakers. And instruments and voices need to stay small in proportion. Above 80 hz low freq. become touchable. I use my sub from 16hz till 140hz. This is possible because the sub is fast as a rocket. Wenn you have slow sub's like Rel above 80hz they become uncontrolable. Why? Because they are toooooooo slow. I sold many Monitor Audio sub's to clients who bought Rel sub's in the past. It is very simple to compare. The difference is so big you cannot go back anymore to the slow respons. |
If the Velodyne would be better and faster I would have bought these. I do not say they are bad. I am a perfectionist. I want to test as much as possible, Always looking for the best. For myself I Always only interested in the best. For my clients I have the same policy. I like to send my clients to other shops to listen to competitors. Because I already know they things I demonstrated are superior. Looking for the best gives me a big advantage to compete. It makes me a lot easier to get a higher level for my clients. I want my clients to know they get the best for there money. I use Velodyne sub's to let my clients understand why the Monitor Audio sub's are faster. I love comparing in audio. It gives a lot of fun and information about the properties/talents of the tool I test. |
In the past we Always did use the Rel sub's to about 5 hz max more than the freq. respons were of the speakers freq. respons begin's. 3 years ago wenn we started with Audyssey we did start with 80hz. Because Onkyo is a THX receiver they start at 80 hz. 1 year ago Audyssey start using subwoofers till 120 hz. I never went this high because we had always trouble with all the Rel sub's ( Also with the more expensive ones like the studio)wenn we wanted to go to a higher freq. The first tests to 120 hz I did with the Monitor Audio PLW-15 with very promissing. Later with Audyssey Pro I even went to 140hz. With Audyssey Pro you can get a much better integration with your sub than what is possible by hand settings. One of my client called it voodoo. What he heard he could not believe. I call it stealth inegration, because it is that good. Above 80 hz low freq. are placeable. To 140 hz the sub go's further and voices and instruments are even better focussed and touchable. The show were I was the absolute sound, shopkeepers came to me on Monday. They never heard such a 3-dimensional image what was this touchable. In stereo and in Multi channel I had the same stunning sound. I compare the Monitor Audio sub's to Rel sub's. Former clients with Rel now buy the Monitor Audio sub's. I want my clients to get the best quality for there money. Wenn Rel would be the best I would have sold this. But.....time go's on and they are not the best anymore. I only sell the best to my clients. A brand I really don't care. Wenn later another brand will be better, this will be the next. Rel is not bad, but there are better ones. |
Noooooooooooooooooooo...a rel sub is fast in your perspective. Compare the respons of a Rel sub to the respons of a Monitor Audio sub. In this perspective it is slow. I use the Rel sub's to compare. They are slower, WE ARE TALKING ABOUT FACTS. This is not about a personal preference. Wenn the Rel would be better I would buy them myself. And I would sell them. I do consulting in sound and vision. I am Always looking for the best in every price tag and category. In Europe Rel has lost a big part of the market in the last 10 years. I do many tests to look for the best. Rel is not good enough anymore. We are 2013, time goes on and there are better ones. I do not say buy a Monitor Audio. I say to my clients; compare them and choose. You fould be a fool to go for less. |
I do tests just by hearing. The same as the roll of. I can choose between 12, 18, 24, 30 or 36 db per octave. But the speed has to do with the timing in respons. At the show were I was many could not and did not believe that I was using the subwoofer. It was that fast. I said what you hear is 16 hz. I use recordings like Kraftwerk, japanese drumm and Yellow to let people hear how low it goes. Sealed sub's are faster in respons. With Rel sub's we Always had recordings wenn the low freq. were not syngron anymore. I hated this and I did not want it for myself. To be honnest I never thought subwoofers would be fast enough for me to use it in my own system. Audyssey Pro and Monitor Audio made me think differently. In the past we sold most of the time Rel sub's. Also for stereo use, I was not satisfied about the quality it gave. Those times ( 1999-2007 I played with the Nautlilus 802 and Later the Nautilus 800S. In 2001 I bought the Nordost Valhalla loudspeakercables. At that time the best in timing. Always looking for the best sound and timing. The PLW-15 from Monitor Audio with the Audioquest Sub3 ( soon I will go for the new outcomming full silver watchdog also from Audioquest)and Purist Audio 20th Ann with Oyaide F1 connectors and Audyssey pro gives the stealth low freq. were I dreamed of. The possitive thing is; Stealth integration of a sub with speakers is possible these days. |
The overlap makes the overwhole sound even better. But this is because the timing is that good. Rel is slower in respons compared to Monitor Audio. Ofcourse for some it is fast enough, not for me. |
Audyssey Pro gives me stunning results also at show's. Even wenn the room has bad acoustics. The difference will be even bigger with the other competitors. For subwoofers Audyssey Pro is a stunning tool to get the maximum out of your subwoofer. |
What I do is I send clients to shops were they sell Velodyne. It is not my responsibility how they do there demo. This is a very easy way to convince. I never heard a demo of a Velodyne at a show that I was thrilled. I Always have my own cd's with me. I give you one clear example; Jacintha Her name is, number 6, I am in the mood for love( I use it Always to test speed, and imaging)Contrabass is on the left side of this recording. And it needs to be very direct and small in proportion. At a show with Velodyne and at home of a client with A DD18 I had the same experience with the same number. Instruments become bigger and the image is getting less focussed. I am still waiting for a demo with Velodyne to get a big smile on my face. The only part I liked is they solve the acoustic problems in the low freq. even in a small room. But I never heard a stereo demo of Velodyne ( every year you find some Velodyne demo's at shows) that the sub was full integrated with the speakers and the image had an extreme direct to point out and touchable image. Or you think the people who gave these demo's are all that stuppid!! |
Wenn it would be unprofessional I would never been the absolute sound of a show. At the end it is the quality of a demo what makes it better compared to the others. It is all about timing and speed. If the timing is better the realism in sound gets better. For subwoofers the level in integration is depending of the speed. If the speed is lower it is more difficult to integrate. The main thing I do not like about the Velodyne is that the stage is less sharp. Maybe Audyssey Pro can create a better integration with the Velodyne sub. I don't know because I did not listen to a Velodyne with this measurment. But with there own measurment I did not hear the accuracy I would want wenn I play in stereo. Nothing more, nothing less. Only for one year I have got a level in integration that satisfied me about subwoofers. Without this measurment I would still not used a subwoofer for stereo use. I understand that the integration of a subwoofer is not easy. But it is possible now. |
Audyssey also is interested in the way I measure. But this I will keep for myself. Audyssey is not an easy system. Because you need to work very precise. Many of my clients and friends hate it. I understand why, when you do not work precise the measurement will work against you. The first test I did with Audyssey is almost 3 years ago. The only experience I had was with Tact roomcorrection, later Lyngdorf. I never liked this system to be honnest. I was amazed by the balance of the overwhole sound at the first measurment I did with Audyssey. I still was playing stereo and without a subwoofer. Because as you know I sold it but I did not like it for stereo use. I Always had very expensive stuff private. This time I wanted to do it differently. So I didn't buy very expensive stuff. I thought I will buy a surround system just as a second set and just for pleasure. At the end it changed my way about sub's and about Multi channel. I Always owned expensive 2 channel sets without a sub. I just had sold my XP-20 and XA100.5 mono's. Wenn you are in this business and you are addicted to music you want the best as possible. I always did spent most of my money to audio in my life. I do this since I was 6. I started with the Onkyo TX-NR808 and BD-SP808 in 2010. At that moment I still had the Meridian 800 DAXv4 of 25000 dollar. I was surprised that this cheap Onkyo even had depth. I Always test everything in how big a stage is. Because a deep and wide stage makes highend audio the most thrilling. The first measurment I did with Audyssey I already was aware of the lost in dynamics. So I thought mmmmmmm this need to improve soon. I started to test at different hights and places. After some time I found a way to loose less dynamics. I have a photograhpic memory in sound. I can remember exactly the way it sounds and how the stage is build at the first option. Wenn I change a part I can easilly compare it with the first option. I can Judge all the parts in audio in a few seconds. I know wenn it is better or wenn it is worse and why. This makes it more easy to get a higher level. Now after almost 3 years I can even change the depth and wide of the stage. Audyssey is a lot more than only roomcorrection. It also gives you more drive, speed and resolution. I can let people hear a lot more details of the music they thought they knew. It is also the control in the low freq. what gives you the possibility to play loud without any problem in the low freq. Wenn I play Kraftwerk or japanese drumm at extreme volumes there is no problems in the low freq anymore. This is a way of freedom I never thought it would be possible. Without my Audyssey pro measurment even my PLW-15 does not sound that great. Also with XT-32 I had very good results with the PLW-15. Audyssey Pro went even a lot further. These days I can even go further with Audyssey pro. I can change the whole freq. respons. I ask my clients what they want to change. I never had a tool what gave me this quality in sound and this freedom. But I use it at a totally different way compared to how Audyssey uses it.I was surprised that a brand like Onkyo could even make a wide and deep stage. Because normally you needed to go to more expensive brands. Time and technique goes on and this changes the world of audio all the time. For me it Always will be a search to those new tools which can lift audio to a higher level. A brand does not say anything, for me it always will be those who are the best at this moment. |
Many of my clients did not use there sub with stereo music. Now with Audyssey Pro they cannot imagine not to use it anymore even for stereo use. Now they use it till 120hz. In the past a lot lower. |
In a few weeks we will have a new website. These days I use Sony Professional video and photo at all my clients. And in many cases it is with Audyssey Pro. They are made in dutch. I will see if we can subtitle them in english. I also collect of all the clients there findings with Audussey Pro. And what they used before. In will show you that there is no myth and it is exactly as I wrote. |
Everything what I do is very open und honnest. I will show you that it is not nonesence. The reason why I do it is because of the average quality many brands deliver. It is only about giving every one a very good level in sound for a normal price. |
Maybe they can make a movie of all this...... |
Sometimes Audiogon is like a tree for me. I like to shake the tree and just curious what will fall out of it..... |
For the money it looks not to bad. I would never go for a subwoofer which is not sealed. Always go for the best respons. In europe in these price tags you do no find something to compare. I cannot find how much they weigh? |
