Cheap add to Townshend cables!
Some of the measurement schematics are stolen from others. They got it wrong. Mr.
Townshend copied the mistakes.
He ends up with C- capacitance.
Capacitance is defined between two points. If the speaker cable is a joint of the black and red wires, tubed in a plastic encapsulation, there might be some
capacitance. Get two separates, no more any capacitance.
What's the big deal?
But loosing the capacitance will not change much the muddy bass, the unclean mid and highs. Getting a cable with a low resistance ref. to DF will. Garantied.
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Capacitance?
Let's assume you use an Amp with a DF of 400. It has an output resistance of 8/400=0.02 Ohms.
What Capacitance (F) should make an audible change?
If you use two separate cables, (Not one that are molding the two lines in a single plastic tube), what Capacitance would such a cable have?
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Townshend audio
Lets talk frankly.
Any capacitance on a speaker cable (stand alone, just vs. a measurement equipment), is the fact there are two cables in parallel, for all the length, at a close distance.
Such a capacitance can be fixed easily by building such a cable, from two separates. Capacitance is gone!
Do you thing that now all cables will sound identical?
No!
The factor to build a speaker cables, is custom built, per the Amp's DF and length required. This would effect the cross section (in gauge or sq. mm).
Such a cable can be calculated.
I did.
Not only that, but I conducted a test on multiple participants and found it works 100% of cases.
I also figured, that if a cross section is calculated, adding thickness, will not make any improvement.
So I have the formula.
It was tested.
None of the sound characteristics can be measured by any of the methods of the tests you conducted.
It is about controlling a speaker, that is a coil moving in an electromagnetic field. None of the AP tests apply.
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Mr. millercarbon
With all the respect to your empiring methode, it will take you a lifetime to tune into the right cable, and still you may not get there. On top, when cables are relatively costly, it may cost you a bit.
If you would step up and use your brain, you could be there (the best cable for your system) at one try, just by a small calculation. I'll be happy to do that for you. All I need is the Amp's Df figure and the length of the cables required. |
I spent some time to figure out why and what is the electrical parameter to make a speaker cable better or worst. I need to agree with Mr.
audio2design that Mr. Max Townshend got it wrong. Sorry about that.
I’d found out that a speaker cable is a wire that has mostly resistance and a bit L and C characteristics, depends on structure and length.
I also figured out, that the speaker cable is not about current. I used a Klipsch Forte-II with 99dB/w/m SPL efficiency, that a loud play would squeeze some 3W peak from my CARVER 250W Amp. the Klipsch were 8 ohms and easy to drive, and the speaker cable still made a difference!
I looked into getting thicker cables and sound improved.
Looking at the speaker - speaker cable - Amp circuit, I dropped the speaker (from the analysis) and looked at the Amp’s output. I’d found there the DF (equivalent to the output resistance of the Amp.) The speaker cable were only an extension to that resistance.
I also found, what should be the ratio between the Amp’s DF (output resistance, and the speaker cable resistance, including its length). So I tried it and went a long way to see if I’m correct or wrong.
Well, all sound systems, showed some improvement (some significand and dramatic improvement). However, when that speaker cable exceeded the required (calculated) thickness, sound did not improve any more!
Some, had claim that the C and L were left out in my analysis. Well Wiki says that DF or Amp’s output resistance is calculated and ref. as a pure resistance (vs. a constant 8 ohms at 1kHz). To eliminate C, I use two separate cables (as they are mostly thick) and that places them apart, rather than go with a pair inside a cable for the entire length.
This DF relation is getting tricky when Amps vary from tube (low DF, under 20) or digital Amp. with DF as high as 4000 and above.
For the first, a land phone cord would mostly do. For a DF of 4000, the cable becomes impracticaly thick. it is mostly better to use two monoblocks, place them as close as possible to the speaker and get the speaker cable as short as possible. Even place the two back to back and use a solid copper jumper.
For practical reasons, any cable thicker than #12 AWG is difficult to work with, connect to spades or banana plugs. So most stuff on the market is of that gauge or less! Very bad...So most manufacturers, respected or not, came out with fairy tales, regarding properties that has nothing to do with physics: Directional, Bi-Wire, Cryo treatment, Silver, High purity and more. None apply.
On top, some cables pricing got absurd. There is no justification for that. None of the manufacturers provide a cable with any costly R&D or material list. The bottom line is of an enormous profit figure.
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Mr.
audio2design
You may be with whom you like to.
1. You ,may throw more complication on the subject, yet you bring no solutions: What is the parameter to look at, and what is its relations to the system its connected with?
2. As long as you stay at the dark side (see no relation and pick your cable blindfolded as not understanding its role), your journey may have no end. You may keep looking till the end of days and not found it. I wonder if you will be the lucky guy to get the right cable on your first attempt (as if calculated and applied) just like buying once in a lifetime a lottery ticket and hit the jackpot...
3. For me, and I explained why no L and C to involved in that calculation, had found the way, to get there on the first attempt, every time I do it.
There are two threads here, with people who were willing to participate and tried it out, getting amazing results, putting away to storage cables costed thousands of $$$ they used before, and get a DIY cable costs less than $100 to replaced them, because they sounded so much better.
On top, I also found out, that when a calculation shows that an X AWG is required, its providing the best sound. If you try going even thicker, sound remain the same. Good, but not better.
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Mr.
millercarbon
Your model I-880 is a tube amp. Those, tend to have two ways to go with:
1. Provide no data or very little. So DF spec. is not to be found.
2. Tube amps have a nature of low to very (!) low DF figure.
I would take an educated guess, that it's under 20.
For that kind of DF, a home phone cord would do the job.
DF in Amp's evolution was a factor. Even first SS amps tend to have some lower DF then found today...Lets look at the Revox A-78, with DF of 30! In the late 70's on the gold era of Japanese Amps and Receivers, and till today on that kind of Integrated Amp's, the most common DF was 40. To most of them, and there were hundreds of model per year.
When some hi-End power amps, with high current capabilities (multiply power by X2 (W)) when load decreases by half (8 ohms to 4 ohms, or 4 ohms to 2 ohms and so), DF went above 100 and towards 1,000. After Digital Amps were introduced and improved, Df figures of 4,000 and above became common. |
Mr. audio2design
On your MIT cable you have a box. All MIT cables does. Inside that box, you will find an LRC filter. That may the one that rolls off your missing highs. Those cables (with some box along the cable) have that property. What else do you think that box (molded) may hide in it? A COVID-19 vaccine? It does effect sound, but in the wrong way. Why paying and getting such a roll off, when you paid an arm and a leg for a perfectly linear sound system? That box, even if it could be removed (it cannot!), nothing guarantees that the cable is up to your Amps requirements to drive (DF). When studied a cable of MIT, taking it apart, I found an RF cable (RJ-45 alike) with the shield and solid core, connected at the adjes. |
Mr. Dave_b
None of the stuff that is teached at technical institutes are based on
meaningful experience. With such attitude, we would still be thinking like Newton, missing Einstein's theory of relativity and more.
meaningful experience can get you to be a good home cook. If you want to step up, you need to go to a culinary school (as I did). You may see what is the difference between meaningful experience and knowladge.
However, you are keeping naging me for nothing. Unless you try my way and come with critics, or bring some of yours to the table, we are going nowhere. If all you got is meaningful experience, than you practically have nothing. |
1. Our ear is not a measuring instrument.
2. Get yourself an Eq. connect it. Go blind folded, while playing your music. Set the Eq sliders, till you like the sound the most. Remove the eye cover and see what is the EQ setup. This is what you like...
Now when you go to a concert or a live show, set your Eq, to get it sound the way you like it...
You see, this is not the way to go. We are about reproducing sound accurately, to get the same as it was when played.
I stopped using Eq at highschool. What about you? Still fine tuning sound by likes?
The roll of the speaker cable with medium and high DF amp's is crucial.
Listening shows it is. Calculation shows the same. Ignoring it, is like getting your had in the sand. I don't mind if you do it. I think that are better way to deal with it.
1. Understand it.
2. Get some effort and calculate the cable parameters (AWG vs length).
3. Apply the right cable.
Trust me, the results will convince you too.
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It's of Audiogon management to decide if those of commercial interests should keep polluting this site, or be stopped and exiled. I do not get how we got from speaker cables theory so far...like on my thread How to select a good Speaker Cableit is all about objecting a subject no one tried, but extensively argued. It may explain a toddler who rejects a food even he didn't try it, just because. The unfortunate truth is, that none of those who object the idea (connection between Amp's DF and cable's resistance) do not have an alternative. This thread do offer something, but it is far away from physics, as west from east. |
Let's keep snake oil (skin effect) and other BS out of this thread. Tube Amp. because of their nature of low or very low DF, the cable has no significance. This is not the spot (under Tubes light) to look for the missing coin. |
