Which is better for a DBA (Swarm); powered subs or unpowered?

heaudio123

... you are either lieing about testing people for directionality at 30hz or your speaker had high distortion and there was frequencies well above 30hz ... You can't localize 30hz. It is impossible.

Actually, @ieales is correct - it is possible to localize a 30hZ tone, and it's been demonstrated. To be fair, it's more difficult to localize LF than higher frequencies, but as you note:

Your ears and brain do not process bass the same as higher frequencies. Timing is less important.

Quite so, and you may be more correct than you realize! What makes low frequencies  directional are differences in phase, and yes, this can be demonstrated, too.

Want proof? Go out and make some of your own recordings. Play them back on a high end system. Perhaps experiment with binaural recording. You might be amazed at what's possible.

heaudio123

Why would I need to make recordings of my own?

You don’t have any such need, of course. Nor do you have any need to conduct any valid listening tests. If you prefer, you can continue to vaguely cite the opinions of others, and assert your opinions stated as fact.

How am I going to make a recording of anything real that only has frequencies sum 80hz or only 30hz.

I have no idea. I’m not aware of any music that only contains frequencies that low, so I’m not sure why you’d ask that question. Is your question a red herring? If you want to test with only those low frequencies, you could use test tones, I guess. Or, you could use recordings that contain a full ranger of frequencies, including extreme LF.

... Lots of experiments have been done on this ... Proper ones ... Not your typical anecdotal. You can’t localize 30hz.

Yes, many experiments have been done. I’ve been involved in a few; their outcomes far outweigh your opinions stated as fact.

To be fair, bass is often summed to mono on commercial recordings, and I’m not sure that there’s much benefit to actually being able to reproduce LF in stereo. But: That doesn’t mean it can’t be done.

heaudio123

.. you wouldn’t know how to set up a proper experiment for subwoofer or low frequency localization. You told me you participated in multiple experiments. Why don’t you know exactly how to set up the experiment to deliver valid results?

You’re begging the question here, a logical fallacy also known as "circular reasoning." You can Google that for an explanation.

My opinions are not "opinions". Actual research in this area, i.e. proper experiments are pretty clear w.r.t. localization and frequency especially with real music and a lot of them have been done ...

You cite no reference, and are probably relying on sources like Sound & Vision for your opinions. And that’s fine, until you claim your opinion as fact.

I suggest you do some background research first and then - if you dare - conduct an experiment or two, perhaps with test tones, or perhaps by making your own recordings.

For your research, study what’s known as the occlusion effect - there’s a lot of research on this, Cambridge Neuroscience and Prof. Brian Moore among those who’ve studied it. That will be a good start for you - but it’s only a start.

heaudio123

Sound and Vision is not a scientific resource ...

Agreed. So please cite a scientific study that supports your claims.
Look at actual scientific studies.

I can post many studies ...

But you haven’t yet, you simply repeat your claim. Meanwhile, I provided a scientific resource for you to begin your study about directional bass. Have you read any of Moore’s work? He’s written hundreds of papers about how human hearing works. You might want to read one or more of them, rather that continue to repeat your opinions and claim them as fact.

Have you ever heard of James Johnson? (Lucent, Microsoft). He’s done quite a bit of work on this! Look for what he's said and you'll have answers to questions you haven't even thought to ask yet!

heaudio123

Moore is an MSEE whose expertise was codecs and perception who worked on MP3 codec.

Yup, Johnson too. It looks like you have some reading to do!

Come on, you keep throwing out names but not one, not one actual source that supports your claim. 

I've cited two sources. That's exactly two more sources than you've cited.

You are the one making the extraordinary claim ...

No, I'm sharing with you research done by others. That's something you've failed to do.

I will post many papers that support the accepted position ...

Yes, you've promised that previously.

ieales

... Sound waves do not interact and sum ...

Actually, they can sum, and they can also subtract. Using out-of-phase signals, for example, is how active noise reducing headphones work. Phase is also part of why LF signals can be directional.

luisma31

... their particular claim of "big bass" and "thump thump thump" and "appreciated by bass heads" IMO it is an insult to the DBA, one of the features of the DBA which I appreciate the most is that quite differently from single or dual non integrated subs the amount of bass you need is very very minimal per sub hence not "thump thump thump" at all.

That sort of criticism of DBA is from those who haven’t heard it set up properly, or have not heard such a system at all. I agree that the one big advantage of DBA is the ability to create smooth, even, neutral bass. It is very appealing.

The price for that smooth, even, neutral bass is that your bass will be monophonic. That’s actually a small sacrifice to make because so much LF is recorded as mono anyway. The problem arises when DBA proponents insist that all bass is monophonic by virtue of it being non-directional. That widely-held belief - supported by claims in magazines such as Sound & Vision and Secrets of Home Theater - can easily be demonstrated to be wrong.

Still, mono bass can sound very, very good, and can lay a strong foundation for the rest of the music. I just prefer to have my LF in stereo, just like the rest of my system, and my speaker system is especially adept at achieving that.