Which came first, the chicken or the egg

They seem pretty proud of it - it's supposed to list for $9K in the single-ended version, $10K for the balanced version. They have the usual very good trade in program scheduled for the fall and say that a properly equipped MC-1 will be worth $4K towards an MC-12. Figuring a 10-15% discount off list, I'm figuring I'm going to have to find about $4K. That's a lot of car seats and furniture to search through.....

Thanks Kirk...hmmm... Now, where can I get a few grand extra?

Bmpnyc- All the press releases and documentation cite an analogue pass-through (direct) function, so the answer is definitely yes for 2-channel analog direct. There is a Q&A with a Lexicon technical type who says there will be analog direct for the full 5.1 input, so hopefully the answer is yes across the board. -Kirk

Kt, any word if that Lexicon will have an analogue direct function, allowing my SACD players analogue outs a straight path, without further digital processing?

Blob7 - Intermingled here, you've gotten some good advice on your original question. For many of the reasons given above and a few more, I have a dual-purpose system in a 14x18x8 room and am very satisfied with it's performance on both HT and 2ch. I would heartily endorse your notion of going for the Pioneer PRO-710 - if I was upgrading my TV right now, that's the line I'd go for, though I'd probably get the 610 for space considerations.

You'll never get a consensus on what to buy, but you'll get plenty of suggestions on good gear. A couple suggestions I'd give you - Lexicon is coming out with their latest high-end processor, the MC-12. They have traditionally excelled at the HT aspects of the pre/pro, and I'd expect this model to push the envelope more. It's a completely new architecture offering the same "future-proof" design characteristics (which I never believe from any manufacturer, but that's another point). For speakers, I'm a big Dynaudio fan, but they don't really have a full assortment of surrounds and their center channel is nothing special. With your budget, you could look at the Revels - they do have special center and surrounds (pricey too).

I agree with the point made that you don't need big Class A amps for that size room, nor would I recommend them, especially if they're going to be in the same room (hot!). I'd opt for a dedicated 2ch amp for the fronts that was of higher power and performance, and then a 5-channel for the centers / surrounds. Many companies offer such an assortment

And I'll throw my plug in for the value of high-end HT gear as well - movies are an art form every bit as much as music (though not having been around as long historically). To write off the reproduction of movies as nothing more than the recreation of explosions, etc. is just too simple. First off, the movie soundtrack is more prominent than ever these days - reviewers of audio gear, too, reference soundtracks more often than ever. Yes, I'm aware that it's not that "crappy" DD or DTS mix they're listening to, but the benefits the soundtrack gets from a higher-end system while playing a movie are substantial. Second, dialogue clarity is essential to getting the fullest playback of a movie. So is dynamic range, etc. etc. I would even argue that hearing a glass shatter "accurately" enhances the experience - that wasn't the case with my nice Denon reciever but most certainly is the case with my Lexicon MC-1. Is it possible to enjoy movies without this level of detail? Sure, just like it's possible to enjoy music on a boom box or mid-fi system. Just like high-end audio, it's not important to everyone, but not everyone who's into HT can be satisfied by a trip to Best Buy either. -Kirk

Thanks for the suggestion.At some point I will be moving my Super Conquests into the front position of my HT setup.Moving the Triumphs to the back.At that point i will be needing new speakers for my 2 Channel set up.
I will look into the sub you suggested.

Leafs, it is probably better that you wait a while longer before jumping into the higher end of home theater/2channel because the better manufacturers are only beginning to catch up with the newest surround formats that Denon already accomodated in their AVR-5800. I heartily recommend a REL sub, as it can be set up for reciving both the speaker out direct, or the .1 subwoofer out. This alows precise set up for stereo listening and 5.1 audio. At their website (www.rel.net) there is a review of the Strata II by Robert Harley that is worth reading, the same can be said of the Strata III or the Stadium series. Also,you really should try to have all your speakers from the same manufacturer for 5, or 6. I am in the process of switching to Musical Fidelity gear and find it to be a worthy challenger to some very good analogue systems. BLOB..., that is kind of a "medium" sized room you are working with and you can probably be satisfied with a 200 Watt per channel Classe` or Theta amp. I don't think you need a monster 400 watt per channel amp. You could probably use the Conrad Johnson or Musical Fidelity 120 per channel amps to great satisfaction, but if budget permits the former are probably best. The JM Labs are very "amp sensitive" , and really need to be well matched. I have heard them sound dull and uninvolving with Krell amplification and absolutely gorgeous with Lamm monoblocks. They are one of many very good choices, but my first choice would have been the whole Aeriel set up. When you say you are closing a deal, but can get out of it if you change your mind, I have no problem with that at all. Sounds like your on the way to a great system. Good luck.

I have no explanation to give you. Ordinarily the membership is all but helpful, including all above, and there is no real bias against HT. You've read some other threads I'm sure, it's ordinarily pretty tame.

The Carl thing is a special case but it's just local politics I invite you to ignore. Carl has recently been banned and is intent on trying to martyrize himself. He and his stooge started a thread "attention members" as part of the official martyrizing canpaign, but it backfired because Carl doesn't know when to stop. Carl really loves this place but Carl has terrible judgment and an abrasive personality, as you have just seen, and has been asked to leave. Right now It's sorta like trying to get a bad genie back in the bottle. The closer you get to finally putting the stopper back in, the greater the outburts from whoever is going back in.

Thanks Jthunders,I read some of his other posts and he's not worth wasting a reply on. But maybe Audiogon should think about changing their name to say....Snake pit or.... Hen house so "newbies" could avoid wasting any time.
Could someone please post the rules of engagement. I guess its ok to take a cheap shot as long as you follow it up with "if I'm wrong (but I've never been wrong in my life) I'm sorry.
Do you miserably little whiners hold hands when your not writing stupid posts, that have nothing to do with the questions? And... oh..... if I'm wrong, I'm sorry.

Removed at the request of poster.

And you forgot to specify what the 7 mono blocks are (that you have already purchsed). Whatjd just pointed out some "major" discrepancies in your two threads (very obvious ones indeed) and left an apology in the case that their was a reasonable explanation for them. So in reality, you don't actually own anything and other than the TV (which you don't yet have poseesion of). Perhaps then this is the real start of the thread.

Blob7,8 &9: What an unbelievable phony you are (perhaps that's redundant but don't suppose you're bright enough to know). Suggest you sign off and try to find carl_eber. You two deserve one another. -Angus

You would have saved a lot of peoples time if you included this info in your first post.
Good choice on speakers.I heard them at an Audio show last September.

Now for the few who are still interested, the room size is aprox. 14wx23dx8h (whatjd will probably take exception to this too). For the "purist" I now know that it's not possible to mix 2 channel with home theater. And I do apologize for suggesting something so stupid. But I'm not trying for perfection,( and if I was, I know now not to post a thread on this site,-- did you catch that one to whatjd). I wanted to get help putting together a mid- hi butt kickin home theater($50k max. not counting room prep or HDTV)maybe with components that whatjd was thowing away (let me know where you live). And in the process have a 2 channel system that would annoy the dog.
I started out looking at B&K stuff with Martin Logans and a JVC transport, then I listened to some Class A Krell stuff with B&Ws. And after reading some reviews, and talking to a few dealers,(most having different opinions) I learned two things, 1. there are alot of unimformed people out there, and second, there are alot of liars too.
But I did like the sound from class A amps. enough to want to upgrade my system to the next level, none of which is readily available near me. So I posted a thread hoping that a few knowledgeable people would share their wisdom with me.
I had already committed to a Pioneer PRO710 HDTV, and was wraping up the purchase on some JMLabs Utopia: Mezzo's, center, mini's and sides along with a Stadium III sub, when I decided to post a thread to see if I could get a consensus of opinion of what to buy.
Now whatjd, just in case you see some of the above mentioned stuff for sale on Audiogon, I spent a good deal of time talking to a dealer that recommended it, agreed to buy it and if I change my mind after listening to responses to this post, I hope it doesn't violate any of your unwritten rules. He earned the sale.
As for jthunders and most of the other people that posted helpful responses....... THANK YOU.
For the rest of you axe grinders go to "owhatagooseiam.com. Start your on bitch session there.

bmpnyc,sounds like you may be able to help me.I guess I am fortunate to have the space to keep them seperate.My fondness of Tube sound requires both.Also need to have something to do when the Kids and wife get their Muchmusic/MTV fix.Not my cup of tea.I have Humble HT setup and I am looking to make some upgrades.I have a Marantz Sr 880 Reciever I am looking for suggestions on a Sub.I have Coincident Triumph for front and center Channel and a 20 year old pair of EPI 100's for rears.
I sure hope theses new formats do deliver.CD did not.If you speak to the averge person (Non-Audiophile)they looked shocked and think your an idiot when you tell them analog sounds better.
Point is they act this way because the mainstream press has told them CD is better.
I hope the new formats are better and not that people think they are becasue they where told to belive this.I am not speaking about people on this site in general.
I am speaking about the average person.Its the average person who needs to buy into these formats for them to be succesful.
I want to see 500.00 SACD/DVD-A/DVD/V/CDR all in one machine and in a couple of years see 199.00 units on the shelf.
When this happens the software will pour onto the shelvs.You wont have to make the descsion on which format you want.
Average Joe got burned on Beta/Vhs.He does not want to get burrned again.
Theses new formats wont survive if they are geared to Audiophiles only.

Take my comments in context.They are based on my fondness for tubes.Putting 5 tube amps in a HT makes for to warm a room.
So if you have 50K to spend and 2 rooms to do it in keep them seperate.If you dont,remember you will be making compromises between 2 channel and 5 channel.

Blob7, No. You can't change your mind. And you have to be %100 consistent too. Otherwise people will dig through your previous posts and pick you to death. You don't have a lot to choose from, so it was really easy in your case. And even though you are new, you should know that is always easier than bucking up with something constructive. Now............... back to your inquiry.

Have you seen the latest thread on progressive scan DVD players? I post some links there that you really should consider reading. There is also some very sound advice given by some of our fine membership in that thread.

whatjd you need to go to :" get a life.com." Yes I have ordered and paid for some equipment, but after reading and asking for advice, aren't I allowed to ask other people's opinion, and then "change my mind"????? What a concept!!!!
Have you ever changed your mind? Or even thought about it? You're probably too busy criticizing everyone else.
You haven't been "had", I don't have time for games. I just wanted some good advice from people that have travelled the road ahead of me. So if you don't have anything constructive to add to this post, go bug somebody else.

Hey AG, what happened to my "edit this post"? I really appreciate being able to amend an error or two.

Hi Leafs, I think the point I was mentioning will be sooner than 5 years. I appreciate just how well served we have been by records and stereo equipment, but certainly that can't be the last word. Stereo itself was a compromise. If I am not mistaken, those who designed the first stereo set ups wanted a third channel, but though it impractical for public acceptance at that time. I have heard some fantastic vinyl rigs directly compared to SACD, and both had certain aspects that were superior to the other. Vinyl edged out the 2 channel SACD player by a nose. It is still early in the lifespan of that technology, and that was before 5 channel SACD was introduced. Of course there will be silly approaches to mixing for 5 channels, but engineers will get the hang of it , and when a recording is done from start to finish with 5 channel SACD or DVD-A in mind, with top artists and engineers I don't think even the best vinyl rigs will be as impressive. It just takes too much money for the average audiophile to get to that level right now. Yes, I can see the day coming when 10.2 channels will be the norm for high end Home Theater/surround audio, but should we stop progress just because it seems like overkill today? I bet in 30 years there will be a thin panel or two that hangs on the wall and excites the room, reproducing absolutely realistic audio, kind of like Star Trek (pardon the analogy), and all those bulky speakers will go in the trash, but until then, I am planning my 5.1 system for growth, and am ready for two more channels or 5.1 more channels if needs be. I get a real kick out of sounding better than any theater I've been to, and having a damn good 2 channel playback when I am in that mood, (which is quite often) I just hope I have a bigger apartment by then! By the way, I doubt anyone ever bought a CD player thinking "now I have perfect sound forever". Also the last time heard 140 watt Vac monoblocks run out of steam when really cranked, the distortion was as annoying as any obvious distortion. What kind of distortion are you talking about? The only obvious solid state distortion I have heard is when it starts beating up an anemic speaker.

Leafs, not everybody wants the perfect sound. Some people want a compromise. Some people want a HT setup that will do a decent job on 2 ch. That's what I want. That's what I have. Will it match your tube/vinyl tweaked and tweased rig in 2ch.? No. Is it even close. Probably not. Is it exactly what I want? Yes. Have I been lied to? No. It's exactly what I want.

Bmpnyc,I get your point.You say it will over take viynl at some point.Well we have been waiting almost 20 years since we where told about perfect sound forever.
One more thing your 5 channel rig will be obselete or is allready 6.1 7.1 8.1 9.1 10.1 do you think they will ever stop trying to sell you stuff.

Leafs, I don't think you would agree with your own comments if you were at my place listening to my 5 channel set up. Point is that with carefully chosen components and cabling, a 5 channel system can easily compete with a great 2 channel rig. Vinyl is alive and well, but a versatile 5 channel system is already competitive, and will overtake vinyl at some point. When 5 channel SACD or DVD-A is really fine tuned, stereo will seem lethargic. Don't get me wrong, I am a supporter of analogue and digital formats, but a reality check is in order. Blob, where you start is in the room. The size affects your choice of gear. What are the dimensions of the room you are shopping for? Many of the components J.T. mentioned earlier would serve well for two channel and multi- channel uses.

Respectfully have to disagree.The two dont mix.
I dont care for the sound of Solid State amps.
They may distort less but when they distort its like nails on a chalk boeard.When tubes distort its still sounds like music.
I have A HT set up in my family room.I love it its great for watching movies and videos.
I still prefer my 2 Channel rig for music.
Dont hold your breath for the new formats.I went to one of the largest music chains in the area and they had no clue as to what I spoke of.
.
When i go see live music it comes at me fron the front.It just does not sound proper to hear the drums comming from the back of me.They are not there in a real performance

Leafs, I don't think you would agree with your own comments if you were at my place listening to my 5 channel set up. Point is that with carefully chosen components and cabling, a 5 channel system can easily compete with a great 2 channel rig. Vinyl is alive and well, but a versatile 5 channel system is already competitive, and will overtake vinyl at some point. When 5 channel SACD or DVD-A is really fine tuned, stereo will seem lethargic. Don't get me wrong, I am a supporter of analogue and digital formats, but a reality check is in order. Blob, where you start is in the room. The size affects your choice of gear. What are the dimensions of the room you are shopping for? Many of the components J.T. mentioned earlier would serve well for two channel and multi- channel uses.

So $50K is for the pre/pro and transport alone and perhaps cabling (7 mono blocks are listed in the other thread as well as the speakers)? Also what of the screen and projector or monitor which needs to match the electronics? I have read lately of people ending up with an unusable screen area due to a mismatch in regard to this (which sounds like a bummer). I still don't get it. Come on Blob. As you all know by now, my recommendation for cable (digital, and balanced IC's aside) is the Sakura OTA Cable kit (at least for the front and center channels and any analog IC's). Why pay more? I am not certain yet if it works in long runs (like for rear channels). I had already cut it up by the time I thought of this with the first batch.

He wanted something, didn't he Dekay? I'm led to believe he wanted 7.1 electronics in this thread. And I think he wanted a pre/pro and a DVD/CD player in the other thread. How is that fascinating? Is it more fascinating just because everyone learned he already had speakers? We all learned that only after the fact in this thread. Nice diversion, but has nothing to do with why I got upset here.

fascinating

I've always gotten it. There ain't a rule that says you have to be consistent with everything you post around here. If there was, none of us would be allowed to say anything after the first thing we said.

JThunders: What Whatjd is saying is that Blob had a new system 24 hours before he started this thread (in which he does not now have a system). Here today, gone tomorrow. Get it now?

he he he.

.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................Still burns you up huh? :-P

Well guys, think I'll sign off from this one. If Mr. Blob7 is somehow not a crock..then my apologies. But from what I see in these two posts...I think he should call the guy at Hello Simply Music...should be able to get what he needs there.

Whatjd you slamed the thunder man again how much abuse can he take.
As long as you and anyone speaks truths whats wrong with that.
Thunder you would be lying if you posted Viynl is dead.
Just because Americans bought into the big lie hook line and sinker,does not mean the rest of the world did.I can get almost every significant new realese on LP from England at less than what Americans pay for a new CD.
So if you want to post lies go ahead.
.

Actually thunders...my question was, his first post dated the 29th states gear he says he owns including speakers front, center, subs..etc., in this post he sounds like he has an empty room and his 1st reply on this post says he is thinking about speakers totally different than the models he claimed to own the day before. Look at his first response above...he states " do I buy the speakers first"..."thinking of the Talon...", and the day before his post states.."have purchased JMLabs Utopias..."etc.. It is honorable of you to defend a "new guy" this, however, may not be the right one.

The only one that has been had here is Blob7. He comes in here as a new guy and posts for the second time looking for information. Where does he post? In the Home Theater Forum. What does he ask about? A hometheater pre/pro that will be for mainly HT use. What does he get? A load of crap talking about the big lie and about how you can't do what you want to do, so don't bother. Later he asks about a DVD/CD player. What does he get? More of the same UNSOLICITED flim-flam which can best be summed up as if you want answers, you first have to get by the 2 channel Gestapo around here--and you can't, so go away.

Why do I care? because the point of this forum is to try and help people the way they want to be helped, not how you think they should be helped. I am so grateful that I did not receive the same treatment after my first inquiry--I would not have stayed. Do I listen to vinyl? No. Do I go into the vinyl forum and tell everyone to quit wasting their money on new tone arms and how vinyl is dead? No. Why? Because that's a COMPLETE pisser.

I do not have one problem with any point of view expressed in this thread, not one. All the points about rooms and vinyl v. CD and problems with mixing HT and 2 ch. are all completely valid and deserving of our complete attention and respect. And I do respect those points of view. But I do have a problem with crapping on a thread to drive some related only remotely side-point home, *especially* if it's a new guy. You want to make your side point--fine, we would all love to hear all about it--start your own thread.

And go ahead, light me up with the negative marks, I could give a shit. I understand those that have trouble forming complete sentences use the voting system to participate--it's often the only way they can. But two things, if you smack me after *everything* I say, it loses it's deterrent effect and I know you're just a cheap vindictive coward. Second, your not going to make a dent.

Think we've been had guys....his other post states that he has already purchased the REL Stadium III and now his reply to his post above states that he is thinking of the "Roc sub"...and the list goes on from there..

Hey all, which post is true? Actually, even in dissenting opinions, I think all of you/us have been trying to help the person that started this post. I just noticed that Blob7 ran a post a day earlier saying that he had purchased many items..speakers, amps..etc., then a day later there is this post acting like it's a clean sheet of paper..which is true? Have we all been trying/thinking/spending time and emotion, and we're not even starting out knowing what we're really working with? Especially you J_thunders..you gave this person some good input on the other post about a DVD player/processor. I think all that had input on this post should look at the other post, just click on Blob7 at the bottom of the this post. Which/what do you think/feel is true?

Blob7,
It is possible to integrate very good 2-ch performance into an HT environment. It will take some care in setup and room treatment, and in component selection, but it can be done. Of course, multi-use necessitates some degree of compromise for one or both uses. You can choose which compromises you can/must make given your tastes and budget. Even at $50,000 (which is a very healthy budget) you can't expect to achieve the pinnacle of excellence in either one, so I wouldn't get caught up in the hyperbole. While this is a wonderful place for music, there are several other forums out there that are more video-oriented and at which you can get a lot of help. I don't know if it's proper to mention them here, so email me if you'd like some suggestions. Good luck, and remember to have fun at this!

Just burns you up.

People can make there own choices.Whats wrong with telling it like it is.Then they have the whole story.If you wish to be had by the false hype of the HT sound go for it no one is stoping you.

It just burns you up doesn't it Leafs, that someone could want something different from what you want.

The room!

To have the best of both worlds you are going to have to make compromises with your room acoustics for both HT & 2-channel audio. In theory you can not have both. On HT the room must be dead and in 2-channel audio the room is live. But since you are looking to "75% home theater, 25% good stereo listening"....You should able to cross the gap very nicely. Before jumping the gun on any hardware purchase, you need to answer the following questions:

What is your room dimensions?
What is your RT60 value?
And at last, someone asked the question already, Is the video is part of the $50k budget?

The room has the most influence on any piece of hardware you can buy. You can buy the most expensive hardware known to man and it wont make a bit of difference if you have sh*tty acoustics in your. It’s just like throwing your money down the toilet! You have a lot of research to do, enjoy.

Dekay has some points there. Most of the HT systems I've seen have some big hard components in the center between the two main speakers, this is generally known not to be very good for the sound. But, I think, another major concern (besides the system ground concerns from cable, etc.) is the serious amount of extra wires, interconnects and components and their circuits. A direction that 2-channel seems to be going down, is to simplify systems. Home Theater, usually,
has many components, many interconnects...and yards of speaker wire. Perhaps it is as simple as Home Theater being able to be done well, (audio wise)..it's just harder to have success.

There has to be a simple reason that these setups do not sound as good on two channel stereo. I mean that a good one uses a tape loop (or bypass) and the quality electronics and speakers are in place. Perhaps just covering the screen and the center channel with a wool blanket (maybe even the rear speakers) would make the difference as the only difference that I do see (between a two channel setup) is a reflective surface (the screen) between the main speakers (this is not a good thing) and three other speakers in the room that will suck up the sound when not in use. Does anyone already do this? Or just try it at a shop and see if it improves the sound in stereo. Also I have heard that getting the cable or dish ground right can be a problem as well. I just messed around with our cable ground (which is not even connected to the stereo) and it does effect the sound of the system.

Blob7, the last three issues of The Perfect Vision might be a good place to look for some reviews, lists and opinions. But, like any review, it is just another opinion and could be tainted with loyalty to an advertiser. The Perfect Vision has a web site where you can download entire issues for $6.00(I think?), and the last 3 issues include reviews of the Martin Logan HT set-up(including a 2-channel perspective), and a "best of" list. But trust youself as you collect more info.

Jthunders if making people aware of the fact that the HT thing is not what it is craked up to be is wrong then I am guilty.I wish there was fourums like this around when CD forced LP out of major production.

You might even want to ask Audiogon to remove the Home Theater forum on your way out the door. Shame on them for teasing people into posting threads like yours with it in the first place.

Blob7, Mr. J_thunders makes some very good suggestions. AudiogoN by its very name is not VideogoN, and there is, likely, more reviews and HT systems to be seen on Audioreview. There was another thread, a few days back, complaining about service at a store called Tweeters. It seems that many former high-end stores went down the path of changing to HT to try to stay afloat. For many of them it was in vain. The Best Buys, Ultimate Audios, Circuit Cities and others are fitting the current direction of most peoples thoughts on what a store should be...maybe, maybe not. For what its worth Audio Odyssey in Iowa City, Audio Consultants in Chicago, and Audio Perfection in Minn. Minn., do the best
custom installs in the upper Midwest..that still can sound like music. AudiogoN is more of audio/music lovers site and if any of use have not served your quest well,...well, sorry. I have heard very good audio systems, that capture my attention, from five to two hundred fifty thousand..and most HT systems I've heard/watched(inc. ones where guys built on special rooms..etc.) have not been as successfull. That said, the closest I have seen/heard was with a direct view Sony or Loeve, and the Martin Logan HT speakers, perhaps a good place for you to start. Best of luck.

Pathetic. Blob7, looks like you are on your own--good luck trying to get your info. May I suggest you try Audioreview instead, it looks like some in here are confused with your attempt to gather suggestions for building your HT system and instead would rather give a state of the union address on 2 channel and multichannel music playback.

Whatjd,You hit a home run.Great post.
J thunders if you cant see the big Lie part 2 is well under way.You are being conned by the big buck marketing campain.
Big lie # 1, cd perfect sound forever.20 years later Vinyl is still better.
Big Lie # 2 HT can reproduce music better than 2 Channel. It cant.
You need to keep them seprate different room.If you dont have the space dont try to do HI FI in an HT setup.Cost's a fortune and your money can be better spent.