Where to invest the most in the "digital chain"?

@mahler123 - agreed the CA CXN60 does look rather lovely at that price point though I do like the idea of keeping the streamer and DAC separate there are virtues to have them integrated whereby there is no cable to attract interference between them. I also like the idea of having "bare bones" no Bluetooth or other superfluous (to me) components. I'm sure the perfect DAC and Streamer are out there for me!

@daveteauk I don't respond to trolls but I can guarantee that you would not speak to me like that face to face. At least not twice. Go and learn some manners then come back when you are ready to be a grown up.

Good point, I was trying to keep the scope of the discussion to the digital aspect of the system. The DAC connects to a Zen Can as a pre-amp/headphone amp with an ifi pentaconn connector. From the Can connects to a Topping PA5 with a pentaconn to TRS cable (very hard to find....limited options, therefore). The noise then comes over Audioquest Rocket 11 to Wharfedale Diamond 12.3's - and a great noise it is too!

A consensus seems to be forming around investment in the DAC itself and good power and clean signal to the DAC. This is interesting

Magic question! My current DAC is under £200 and being realistic I can't justify spending over £1k anytime soon.

Great stuff so far guys.

DAC first, digital path second.

I am definitely in the camp of keeping components separate and dedicated to the task at hand which is why I am using the Zen Stream as a dedicated Network Transport. I don't want anything with superfluous components such as Bluetooth that require core complex circuitry and create more noise.

Any recommendations on the best DAC that is just a core DAC?

Loving this, thanks so much for the insights. I'm particularly interested in the thinking that having the highest quality streamer at the front end negates the need for as much tinkering in the Ethernet chain (though I also wonder if that can only help a high-quality streamer reach greater heights?)

For now, I need to remain within my self-imposed budget which is why I can tinker with the Ethernet and USB chain. To be fair the budget kit I've got sounds really good (to my ears) so I should get a decent period of use out of it before I look to replace the network transport/streamer and DAC.

That said it's not stopping me from reading about better DACs already! :)

@vonhelmholtz - I'm really pleased with the Zen Stream and the Zen DAC too. There are a lot of top-quality components in there and upgraded iPowerX and AC iPurifier's really make them shine.

I actually like the challenge of getting the best out of "budget" hardware (there is cheaper out there) by tweaking cables, power and switches - it appeals to the techie in me.

I highly recommend you try an iPurifier3 from the Stream to the DAC (you can get them on Amazon with free 30 day return) - I'd be interested to know what you hear but I'm hearing a marked improvement.

@larryro2 - best comment of the day! you are absolutely right that a good chair is one of the most important listening tools!

@audiotroy i'd love to drop £4k+ on anything, in fact I'd love to have £20k+ to play with full stop. But, I'm on the budget end of the enjoyment of music so this will have to wait a while!

@roadwhorerecords - whilst Tidal is more expensive than Spotify it's not a significant cost (compared to Roon!)

(I know what you mean though and I'd love to justify starting a Vinyl collection but I can't)

@dman1974 - great advice

I think there is a mixture of opinion. Some are saying that the DAC is all that matters and others are saying that DAC and Streamer / Transport are equally important. 

Note, I'm deliberately not discussing the analogue chain as it is well known that you need great speakers and a capable amp. 

On which note, I really like the look of the Lumin U2 Mini!

@ghdprentice - absolutely, the beauty of forums is that you get many different opinions. Sometimes people with less experience can bring fresh insight to the table and folks with more experience might be a bit "stuck in their ways". So, it's all helpful context!

The wisdom of crowds here is to invest thousands of dollars into a streamer and DAC (combined or separate).

I've approached things from a network perspective and right now my system sounds superb with an optimised digital path and "budget" separates. So it's interesting to consider potential investments in better components to see how good this could be!

I am loving this thread already as the emphasis is on best components first and then Ethernet and USB "treatments" second.

That said my system does sound glorious with some well-chosen Ethernet, USB and Power upgrades.

@oddiofyl great comment. As I'm learning as I go I've already started researching and saving for a better network transport and DAC. I have my eye on a few options but will take a look at the Aurender.  

Interesting but I'm not ready to drop £6k on a pair of speakers. I am planning to do some A/B testing tomorrow against my upgraded wireless router to see if all the Ethernet magic in the chain has any discernable benefit. If I can't hear a serious difference I will be returning / selling a lot of components!

Having done some initial listening tests this evening between Wi-Fi and the very complicated (and expensive) Ethernet path my conclusion is that Wi-Fi is just as good as over £1k's worth of Ethernet toys.

I plan to do some more tests tomorrow but I'm very pleased everything is still returnable! Now that £1k can be redeployed into a new DAC to experiment with.

In the interests of transparency I've spent the last several hours listening to a number of pieces of music that have passages of silence as well as single instruments and acoustic vocal tracks - with these on repeat I've slowly removed a number of components from the "digital path".

The end state I have landed on is that the Wi-Fi circuit in the Zen Stream is more than good enough for a low noise signal (hence removing the Cisco 2960, EE 8Switch and SotM iSO CAT7 and assorted high-end Ethernet cables).

The connection between the Zen Stream and the Zen DAC v2 is now just the supplied USB cable and an ifi iPurifer 3.

Removing the iPurifier and re-adding it yielded the most noticeable improvement in SQ with audible noise on an MQA Studio recording of Adagio for Strings without the USB filter, and near-perfect silence with it added in.

It is worth noting that I have recently upgraded my Wi-Fi router to an ultra-powerful TP-Link DECO XC80-5g which reaches every corner of my three-story house with rock-solid high-speed connectivity.

I have my eye on several potential upgrades to the Streamer and DAC in the near future, with a preference for a Streamer that supports Qobuz natively as well as Tidal with MQA decoding.

I appreciate all the responses, even the hostile ones as they are always a test of ones self restraint ;)

@slbjbb now that is super interesting, thanks for the insight!

@lollipopguild - I've actually removed Ethernet entirely from the path. I have upgraded my Wi-Fi router quite significantly and switched to the Wi-Fi circuit in the Zen Stream which sounds superb (and Wi-Fi is about as 'isolated' as you can get compared to Ethernet!)

So all of my Ethernet purchases have been returned except for my 2960s.

@donnylovely - that is very interesting indeed.

I have replaced my Amp and DAC and that has resulted in great improvements. I'm currently using USB into my Ares II DAC with an ifi USB iPurifier3. I have tested with and without the iPurifier3 and it definitely helps remove noise. I have also tested with a very expensive USB cable versus something for around £30 and noticed no difference once the iPurifier3 is at work.

As a continual tweaker, I have got a few components on order and will experiment with them in various combinations:

Audiolabs DC Blocker (will test on my Rega amp and the Denafrips DAC - may end up with two, one for each, or none if I can't hear a positive difference)

ifi GND Defender (as above)

ifi iSilencer+ - for the source end of the USB connection

Audioquest Cinnamon Coax - will try this instead of USB from the Zen Stream

ifi SP-DIF iPurifier 2 - will try it with the AQ Coax (with an iPower X for the 5V input)

Douk U2 Pro DDC - will try this with and without all of the above tweaks to see what gives in this super-budget device (I have a second spare iPower X 5V for this though reports say it is better with USB power)

An Intel NUC for ROCK - I want to evaluate Roon as I want to use Qobuz and Tidal in harness. Plus Tidal connectivity is intermittently glitchy to the Zen Stream.

If I like Roon I will try it direct to the DAC both via USB and via the Douk DDC - to see if I can eliminate the Zen Stream altogether. I will also probably buy a better PSU for the NUC.

Other than the NUC, everything is returnable (though I got the NUC for less than the barebones unit sells for new so I'm sure I can resell it).

I also have a pair of Cisco 2960's spare with SFPs and a short fibre optic cable that I can put in front of the NUC if necessary.

Believe it or not, my end game is to have as few boxes as possible but I want to experiment to find the best SQ with the "budget" kit.

If the DDC makes a big difference I will almost certainly try a Gustard U-18, Singxer SU-6 or Denafrips IRIS (if I can find an IRIS!)

With all of the above said, I'm also very interested in the new ifi Neo Stream but if Roon works well for me I will try to remove another network device and go direct to DAC. However, I suspect the galvanic isolation of either Wi-Fi to the Zen Stream or the Optibox into the Neo Stream will really help (plus the Neo Stream removes the need for a DDC and Coax/USB tweaks!)

I've implemented a TP-Link DECO XC80-5G and it is superb. The Wi-Fi circuit is built-in to the ifi Zen Stream. 

J

@jorjlien you are probably right however I have now implemented a DDC between the Zen Stream and my (new) Denafrips Ares II DAC with a basic Startech USB cable into the DDC and a high-quality Audioquest Coax from the DDC to the DAC.

I have experimented with a variety of cables and purifiers in the path and have sent them all back now I have the DDC in place. As a result, I have a better DDC on order to see what is possible here.

The power cord will go to the dedicated digital gang lead of high quality with a two AC purifiers. Power noise shouldn't be a problem!

@jorjlien it does seem that a DDC makes a positive difference. I'm using a budget one at present which is USB powered and sounds pretty good. I have a Gustard U18 coming which has an internal LPS. I have a spare quality IEC lead waiting for it.