There are many interesting threads here about innumerable topics where people share many different opinions. If the truth be known I think many of us are still open to suggestion or opposing points of view regarding most things, but there must be some issues about which we are unwilling to budge.
In your own mind what is the concession you are unwilling to make?
For example; many people feel tubes are superior to solid state equipment. I have owned tube gear, and have several friends who I respect that still own tube gear, but I will not concede that solid state equipment is inferior to tubes.
Another concession I cannot make is the superiority of CDs to vinyl. I have a good CDP and have listened to better than my own, and in my experience LPs still are the hands-down winner for sound quality.
I have and like Krell equipment, and have been taken to task because of it. I'm still not selling it to buy another brand.
The question is: Regardless of the opinion of others what views or opinions are you unwilling to change???
Yeah, there are always examples where basic rules dont apply. Hell, for 1,500 i could assemble a system that a 3000 bose accoustimass couldnt ever touch.
Point is, if you built a system for 10k that does not sound as good as a system that cost 4k, then maybe instead of buying new stuff you should be doing research to find out why the system has so many shortcomings. Chances are something isnt set up right.
As for the 2,400 speaker with the bigger brother that has 1 extra driver and is a little bit bigger, i always kinda wondered that myself. You see that now and again.
I believe a very well thought out 6k system can sound better than a thrown together 20k system, but i would have a hard time believing a well thought out 10k system will outpreform a well thought out 20k system. its more than just the price tag, you gotta be sure the stuff works together.
"This costs more than that so it must sound better" Yeah, thats a dumb statement
"This costs more than that, so it probably sounds better" Is a generalization, and normally is true, and not a dumb statement.
Or can you honestly say that more often than not, spending less gets better quality? Probably not. I will however admit that here are always exceptions to the rule, and usually quite a few of them if you look hard enough
Again I ask the question: If cheaper sounds better than why don't you have a $100 system. The notion that lesser quality parts and materials will sound better than better parts/material (and of course design) is plainly foolish.
Those who use the, I listened to this 30,000 speaker system in the store and it sounded like #$%* are deluding themselves. Speakers were not made to listen to on a showroom floor. There is not a worse place to audition anything! Did the Celestions (Which I have owned) cost less to produce than the bigger speaker? The cost of production plays a large part in the end price of a speaker! I do not consider this audition to be a valid experience. The enviroment was far too compromised. That doesn't mean the Celestions were not better speakers, although I doubt they were. It means the listening room was not set up to do any serious listening.
Alright, you convinced me! I'm going to go and sell all my gear and buy something cheaper because it will sound better than what I own now!
Maxxc, if one were to randomly choose 10 audiophiles and give them two budget amounts, say $10,000 and $30,000, I suspect that the more expensive system would sound better than the less expensive system in every individual case. I would also suspect that one or two of the ten lower cost systems would sound better (at least to somebody) than one or two of someone else's ten higher cost systems. If someone would like to test that theory, I stand ready to spend their money ;-)
Why is it beyond belief or beyond a reasonable doubt that someone might find a less expensive piece of audio gear or system more to their liking (or even better sounding to them) than a more expensive one?
For example, I've listened to different speakers at different audio retailers (most around these parts won't allow home auditions) and I've found some (usually the smaller stores) to have fairly well set-up listening rooms. I have also found differences/preferences going both ways in terms of lesser/more expensive gear.
Most of us have limitations in a financial sense and so that also plays a big role in our audio experiences. Most of the time I probably won't even bother to listen to equipment that is more expensive than my upper budgetary threshold (don't want to let the genie out of the bottle). I recently listened to a $5,000 pair of speakers and a $4,000 pair. I preferred the latter. I mention this because its not a huge difference in price, although some might say that 25% is considerable. I could probably stretch the budget if I really preferred the more expensive speakers, but I didn't.
The good people at the 'Gon are frequently suggesting/recommending to newcomers that YMMV, listen with your ears, make up your own mind about what sounds best to you, etc... Why shouldn't this also apply in relation to the $$$'s one spends on gear?
I dont think anybody is stating for a definate fact that every piece of gear with a higher price tag sounds better than a piece of gear with a lower price tag.
But the fact remains that it is perfectly appliable as a general rule, that more expencive usually sounds better than less expencive gear. And it looks to me like everyone who defends that point accept the fact that there are always exceptions.
Not many people on the Gon have a Cost-no-issue wallet, and im sure many people on the gon have heard 5,000 speakers that sound better than some 8,000 speakers. its all preferential, and a matter of taste and opinion. But i would have a hard time believing that aa $500 pair of speakers would ever sound better than a $30,000 set of speakers. If so, im with NRCHY. Lets all sell the expencive gear because we must have all been idiots to buy it in the first place right?
People who pay alot of cash to buy gear that sounds terrible usually dont even KNOW about alot of the brands that audiophiles love. Usually they buy Bose. Whats the point of buying a Krell because it is a Krell? Nobody would have any idea what the hell a "Krell is" People who buy krell do so because they like the level opr preformance offered and prefer the sonic charicteristics of it.
personally from the forums ive read and interactions ive had on this board, i believe that most philes, at least on the Gon and Audio Asylum have the gear they have because they liked the way it sounded. Not because it was the biggest and baddest. And if the equipment they liked had a high price tag, Who cares?
Maybe a $1000 speaker fits a purpose better than the 30,000 set, but i would doubt they sound better.
And what is "Sound better" anyway? Thats a very personal thing. What sounds better to one person sounds like crap to another. Just because these guys pay 18,000 for a set of speakers somone thinks sound like crap doesent make them an idiot or have poor choice in thier gear, it means that thier needs might not be the same as yours and those 18,000 speakers will fit better than the 2,400 that sound oh so much better.
I'm sitting here with the cheapest ghetto system on the Gon, but you dont see me sitting here calling Nrchy a fool for having a 30,000 system and praising TWL for having a system under 10k. Nrchy has a rig he likes and gives him a sence of satisfaction, and so does TWL. I garauntee that TWL's Lowther Voight Pipes are not what would please Nrchy. And im sure Nrchy's more expensive Sonys are not what TWL would prefer.
Taste in audio gear performance is as diversified as taste in music.
So to sum it all up, there is no BETTER speaker, the one YOU like might be $20, or $200,000. Personal taste determines what you buy.
Believe me, if I had $30k available for audio, I'd sure be able to spend it in a hurry! I didn't stop at $10k, oh alright, now it's $13k, because I wanted to. I did it because I ran out of money. Walker Proscenium and Aesthetix IO and Loth-X Bards are calling me, like a siren song.
Anybody got a spare $65k they don't know what to do with?
Slappy - good comments, pretty much on the mark I think. Maxxc's comments effectively define his mind set and to my way of thinking make him sound like a jealous "have not" who has insufficent experience to make any judgments of value of interest to anyone but himself.
Elizabeth, I obviously did misunderstand your comments about the RIAA curve and LP purchases. Sorry! I'm not sure anymore where I got the idea, perhaps I'm more delusional than I thought.
Someday I'm gonna pull my Victory along-side Tom's BMW and listen to those Lothar's. I hope he's not home when I do it. I don't want to get shot!!!
It is not my intention to say that there are no good "budget" products out there, but as TWL clarified, as a generalization better gear costs more. I'm still not sure that my system sounds better than TWL's though.
Everybody likes different gear and different sound, that doesn't make the other person wrong (unless of course, they disagree with me). :^)
The last question Elizabeth asks though is a very improtant one, but maybe not one to be dealt with on AudiogoN!
Actually my comments were directed toward the fact that a 30k system must sound better then a 20k system or the owner of the 30k system screwed up.
Audio equipment is not built to a price point to get the maximum amount of sound for the $$$. If one has bothered to look around. They will notice a very arbitrary pricing pattern. This is called marketing. Selling at a price point for maximum profit.
The audio mind set seems to be that if it costs more it must sound better.
Speakers, cables and interconnects seem to really thrive on the more $$$ must be better sounding mentality that is so rampid in audio.
$9000 dollar speaker wires. $5000 interconnects. You don't think the sellers of such items are sitting back and laughing at the gullability of potential purchasers?
I've talked with the owner of the company that sells the $2400 monitors with the same drivers as his $18,000 speakers on several occasions.
Several of the options he offers are Cardas binding posts ($300) Cardas Litz wiring ($300) and external crossover ($400). Straight out and in no uncertain terms he stated, the effect of these options added nothing to the sound, absolutely NIL!!!
Why offer them then? Audiophiles were demanding such items.
Do my $2600 monitors sound better then my $400 (direct from manufacturer) speakers? Damn right! Will every set of $2600 speakers sound better then my $400 speakers? I would certainly hope so. Will every set of $800 speakers sound better and/or have better drivers cabints etc. then my $400 speakers. Absolutely not!
sound better then $13000 speakers as a general rule. Point is here were some beautifully finished speakers that looked very impressive. Mahogany finish with 11 drivers in each cabinet. The crossover was so bad that you could actually tell which driver the music was coming from. I wouldn't believe it had I not heard it myself.
Newbee perty balless comment. Easy to hunch over your computer and take potshots at someone you will never have to face. "If you can't discredit the message discredit the messenger" Looking at your previous posts in this thread you seem to advocate the same beliefs as myself. Care to make any actual worthwhile comments on the 30k must sound better then the 20k simply because it costs more?
1. I believe diminishing returns applies in all walks of life - including audio. 2. I believe 'diminishing' means 'diminishing', not 'non-existent'. 3. I believe all of us spend WAY too much energy and resources on our equipment instead of our rooms and music.
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