Where do I go from here?

Crap. I saw this review for the Hegel H160 from Enjoy the Music and meant to post but just didn’t get around to it. It happened to compare the H160 to the A21 so thought it would be particularly interesting for this thread. I just flat out disagree with the dealer about the preamp section of the Marantz being "invisible." At the price point they can’t possibly use better quality parts or fully shield the stereo signal from the rest of the electronic hoopla that a prepro creates. It’s shortcomings are invisible only until you compare it to a good stereo pre and then, as it did for me, the differences tend to be anything but invisible. As I mentioned before and as many of us here have learned through personal experience, it is very unwise to discount the importance a preamp plays in good 2-channel playback. Here’s part of the review:

"Pass, Naim, Roksan or Hegel all deserve excellent reputations for adding, not detracting, from the music. Every time I hear a massive or even low power Pass amplifier, I am impressed with how much more detail, texture, soundstage and tone it provides. Raw, flat and boring accuracy can wear you out. The key is adding the proper neutral balance to the notes to give them more definition, shape, texture and tone. Good amplifiers do this. The Hegel does it. The Hegel is a really good amplifier. Rated at 0.2% Total Harmonic Distortion, the Parasound Halo A21 amplifier has 400 watts RMS into a 4 Ohm load! Up against the Halo on the Focal loudspeakers, the Hegel confirmed it was a different unit with a more European sound.
Spyro Gyra is a 1970s American jazz fusion band. The band’s name is a misspelling of Spirogyra, a genus of green algae, which the sax-playing leader wrote about in college. Their music combines jazz with elements of R&B, funk and pop music. The band sold over 10 million copies of more than 30 albums. On the Spanish samba "Impressions Of Madrid," the Hegel is smooth, with relaxed confidence, reminding me of Yves Bernard André’s French YBA amplifiers. There is a polite patience to the casual edge of notes. Less Spanish snappiness, but major differences between the two amplifiers are quite hard to discern. There was no readily attributable color or feel to the amplifier.
Yet the Halo is a very different sounding amplifier compared to the Hegel. It is harder, sharper, brighter, thinner, and lighter, with more of the solid-state feel. The Halo has very good dimensionality, but it is missing the warm fullness of the Hegel along the entire frequency response spectrum. The Hegel has clear, high treble on horns and rattle. On Tom Scott’s "Them Changes," for example, horns on the Hegel sound organic – subtle, like tubes – yet also imminently and immediately listenable."

I thought the sonic characteristics of the Hegel were more inline with what you were looking for, which is why I was so strongly recommending it -- along with getting a better preamp in the bargain. And FWIW, even my wife -- who is a total Luddite with these things -- had no problem using the HT pass through in our system.  I sincerely hope the A21 works out, but if it’s not to your liking do you have a return option? Sorry I was so late with this.

Just to be clear, you’d still be using the Marantz for HT (and multichannel music) duties, it just wouldn’t be involved in critical 2-channel music duties.

Well, I’ll weigh in with my own personal experience, which is why I responded to this post in the first place. First, especially among people newer to the audio sickness, the stereo preamp is possibly the most under-appreciated component as to how much it contributes to a 2-channel system’s ultimate performance. A while back I was using my Rotel RSP-980 prepro (not a bad piece in its day either) in the same way you’re planning to possibly use your Marantz, and it worked well with my McCormack DNA-0.5 Rev A stereo amp (pretty much comparable to a Bryston 3BSST BTW). But the first time I substituted a good stereo preamp for the Rotel for 2-channel listening there was absolutely no going back. Feeding a very good stereo amp with the stereo preamp section of a $1500 prepro is most likely going to cause a significant bottleneck in your 2-channel sound. Think about it -- you just can’t economically put high-quality (or properly shielded) parts into the stereo preamp section of a $1500 prepro, not to mention that the fragile, low-level source signal is going to be routed through a noise-polluting electronic obstacle course with all the additional electronics involved in the various functions of a prepro. Believe me, I get it how nice it would be to use the prepro to do it all. Been there done that. Audiophiles who want to do that spend many thousands more on their prepros to get a truly good stereo preamp section (think Krell, Anthem, Theta, Classe, etc.). A $1500 prepro? Sorry, just doesn’t add up. Please take it from someone who’s been there. Now, if you get a good stereo amp now with the intention of adding a good stereo preamp later, that could be a very good plan as well. But it will take longer, be considerably more expensive, and add yet another box to your system. This is why I thought a good stereo integrated was such a nice fit for your particular situation. One and done on the relative cheap. OK, I’m done. That’s all I got. Best of luck in whatever you decide.

@auxinput -- The tweeter wasn’t really the issue or stated as being more pronounced. In this case the entire soundstage presentation appeared more right in front and visceral -- much like sitting in the first row of a performance.

@wisciman99 -- Auxinput addressed the basic connection above, but since you’re new to this I’ll add some more detail in case it’s still a little confusing. The new integrated would be hooked directly to your front L/R speakers and your highest quality stereo source would also be routed into any line input on the integrated (let’s call it the "CD" input) -- really just as if it was a standalone 2-channel setup. Now, to incorporate the HT/Marantz into the system, everything stays exactly the same as it is now on the prepro (don’t even change the channel balance levels) except the front L/R RCA preamp outs from the Marantz get routed to the "HT Bypass" input on the integrated. Believe it or not, that’s it -- you’re done. And here’s the best part --to listen to stereo choose the "CD" input on the integrated, and to watch TV/movies just hit "HT Bypass" on the integrated. That’s it. Pushing just one button completely and seamlessly switches between 2-channel and multichannel, and ONLY the integrated is in the system for stereo (the Marantz is completely out of the chain). Best of both worlds. Almost hard to believe, right? I and many others on this site have done this with great success.

As for the Hegel (and I’d definitely choose the Hegel over the Halo Integrated), it really depends on your budget. The improvements in the 190 vs. the 160 seem to be more refinements than a complete overhaul from a sonic perspective, plus some added streaming/automation features that may or may not be important to you. Right now there’s an "as new" open box 160 available from a dealer for $1790 (maybe with full warranty) that I’d find pretty hard to pass up since you can probably sell it for little or no loss if for some reason you’re not thrilled with it. (If you’re interested in this I’d move quickly as it’ll likely go fast if it’s not gone already -- again, likely very little risk with this). The 190 is $2995 here, but whether it’s worth almost 70% more for the latest and greatest is up to you. Personally, I think you’ll be very happy if not thrilled with the improvements from the 160, so I’d do that and pocket the $1200 difference.

Sorry to be so long winded, but hope it helps.

After reading some reviews it sounds like the ML Motion series may be geared to be more of a "front row" perspective rather than further back, so meaningfully increasing depth of stage may not be in the cards. Apparently pulling them out further into the room didn’t help too much, which would make sense if they’re designed more for an upfront presentation.

Since this is a system being used for both multichannel and stereo I’d shy away from tube amps. No sense burning up tubes to watch TV or movies IMO. Although your speakers are stated to be 90dB efficient they’re also rated at a nominal 4 Ohms impedance, which means they probably dip below that somewhere in the frequency range (the Motion 40s drop below 3 Ohms at around 100Hz so likely the 20s dip around there too). Anyway, for all these reasons I’d avoid tube amps. I’d also recommend a good stereo amp rather than monoblocks -- no strong reason to pay up for two boxes in this situation, again IMO.

Just FYI, adding a stereo preamp to your system wouldn’t add much complexity at all -- I know that sounds a little hard to believe, but it’s true especially if you get a preamp or integrated with a HT bypass. My best and most cost-effective advice, and what I’d absolutely do myself if I was in your situation, would be to add a good solid state integrated amp. You’re only adding one box to your system, and you’re killing two VERY important birds with one stone by adding a better dedicated stereo preamp and amp. Going direct from your Marantz doesn’t change the fact that the signal is still passing through the preamp section (and the rest of the electronic morass) of the prepro, and at that point the damage is done. Something like a Parasound Halo Integrated or a Hegel H190 (among others) would likely bring very significant improvements to your 2-channel experience. Here’s a link to an H190 review that actually uses your speakers in the review system: https://www.soundstagesimplifi.com/index.php/equipment-reviews/29-hegel-music-systems-h190-dac-integ...

Incidentally there’s an almost new H190 available here now at a $1000 discount. Best of luck in whatever you end up doing.

Your biggest bottleneck to a broader and deeper soundstage from an equipment standpoint IMO (and assuming you've optimized speaker placement) is probably the preamp section of your prepro.  A good dedicated stereo pre can really open up a system in so many ways, and although I won't go into it here it is very easy and seamless to integrate a stereo pre into a multichannel system where the prepro is out of the loop completely for 2-channel listening.  In your situation you might even consider a good integrated as you'll upgrade both the amp (which you'll probably want to upgrade at some point anyway) and pre at the same time.  Best of luck. 

Before doing anything else, listen in stereo to one of your better recorded tracks that inherently has good broad and deep soundstaging. Now try pulling your speakers out another foot (don’t worry about what it looks like for now) and about 6' apart and toe the speakers in so that they point toward your shoulders. Put on that same track and see what you think. My guess is you’ll get better imaging with an enhanced sense of space and depth, and you may also find the speakers disappear more as a sound source. Let’s start with that and go from there.

Are you talking about 2-channel music too, or just multi-channel listening?