I have a tweaked Thorens TD160 - birch-ply base board with Black Diamond cone feet; Dynamat on subchassis, platter and wood plinth; Herbies TT mat; RCA outputs and upgraded interconnects - which makes the TD sound pretty good. The problem is that the suspended subchassis design makes it extremely vulnerable to vibration on my rack and so I must place it in a very inconvenient location resulting in my not using it very much any more. I'd like to go back to a non-suspended design - my former Music Hall MMF5 had no problems on my rack but the MMF5 was significantly outperformed by the TD160. The question is: How much am I going to have to spend - new or used - to beat the TD160 and what brands/models are recommended?? I'd like to keep the cost under $1000.
I lowered the VTA slightly and it sounds better; more balanced. I'm still playing with the VTF from just a little more to just a little less that the 1.5G recommended. I'll try again tomorrow since my brain needs a rest. But I can tell I'm on the right track thanks to your advice.
- too light allows mistracking by the stylus. Since HF modulations are the hardest to track, they take on a slight "tizziness" or edge as the stylus struggles to trace them cleanly.
- too heavy dulls HF's and diminishes overall dynamics. The music sounds sodden.
- just right gives HF's that are fully extended but clean, and maximum bass and dynamics.
VTA
- too high tends to reproduce HF's slightly before LF's. This gives sounds a bit of fizz or edge.
- too low tends to reproduce LF's slightly before HF's. This makes things sound dull or unexciting.
- just right gets all the frequencies of a note centered. Everything from LF to HF is coordinated with maximum punch.
VTF and VTA are inter-related. Changing one often effects the other. It can drive you nuts if you let it. Some people take that as a challenge to get it right. Others don't want the distraction and prefer to just enjoy the music the way it is. The right way is whatever way you feel most comfortable.
I will keep the table. Good advice. And, will play with adjusting the VTA - right now I have it about level to just a bit down in the back. What kind of differences do you notice with VTF and VTA adjustments? Also I just finished installing the heater hoses and will test it later today after I clean the garage. By the way, I picked up this 160 at a yard sale last summer for $10. I was amazed that it sounded so much better than my Music Hall MMF5 and sold the latter soon afterward.
That's great news. The ability to trouble-shoot, adjust and tweak sonic results is part of the attraction of vinyl replay. Or maybe it's part of the annoyance. I sometimes forget which! ;-)
In addition to trying various footers to tame that newfound bit of edginess, you should also try very small adjustments in VTF and VTA. A slight increase in the former or decrease in the latter might do the trick.
This evening I removed the springs and replaced them with drilled-out zebrawood blocks which completely eliminated the footfall problem. However, while it sounded good there was a bit of harshness (loss of 'magic'?) to it so tomorrow I will try the auto heater hose solution described in the link Armstrod suggested.
Thank you all very much for putting me on the path to solving a longstanding problem. I really appreciate your thoughtful recommendations. I'd just about given up on vinyl since it had become so inconvenient and I did not really want to spend the money to replace the 160. It now seems that experimenting with various solid materials to replace the springs will allow me to tweak the solid suspension approach to refine the sound.
FWIW, my suspension-less tables have far fewer footfall problems (viz., none) than my old suspended table, this on a springy wood floor. Bouncy floor + suspended table = problems.
If defeating the springs on the TD-160 is a fairly simple and reversible DIY, I'd certainly try that before shelling out dough to make what might be a lateral "upgrade"
I did this to my TD 150 and it worked quite well. It eliminated the footfall problem and provided at least as much "magic" as the springs. It also made balancing my far heavier Rega RB 250 arm much easier.
Yes, I believe altering the suspension on a thorens will take the magic away. I have read that the springy suspension is integral in thorens turntables.
V, I'd be willing to try defeating the springs; shouldn't be difficult and of course, reversable. Will that have a detrimental effect on the table's pperformance?
Actually, I'm kinda reluctant to sell the 160. If I could solve the jiggle problem I'd be happy. Right now I have it sitting on the window ledge of a bay window behind my component rack and althought the setting eliminates the jiggling it is a very inconvenient location. A wall mount bracket is out since the window is in the way and the wall becide the window is directly behind my speakers. Although the back of speakers are about 30" out from the wall and there is room for a walmount shelf. I think the bass energy back there would be detrimental to the TT.
I'm seriously tempted to rip up the carpet and plywood underfloor then brace the floor joists to the cement floor below - only a few feet at most since this room is an addition built over the former garage floor. But, I'd like a simpler solution and I suspect that while the bracint will help, it probably will not completely solve the problem. If I can't find a good anti'jiggle solution the TD will have to go. Soulbass, give me your email and I'll contact you if I decide to sell - but probably not for a few months yet.
you are replacing a classic....some the best used tables for under 1k are the oracle paris or alexandria, the rega 25, vpi jr........you will have no trouble selling your thorens
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