This is gold: But the lack of money push you to be creative, on the right or wrong track anyway, but creative you must be, if you want some sound quality results with your audio system... ( money for sure is not the warrenty of Hi-FI " per se")
And you must not reinvent the wheel also and listening to basic known facts of science is a good idea … But it is not a necessity to be a scientist and someone can use his own ears to obtain a relatively good results, without resolving any equations... For example to treat a room without a computer... Pure gold. |
Let me restate my point - while there’s obviously nothing wrong with DIY results can be just as hit and miss for poor people as they can for rich people. Enthusiasm can be very contagious. Say that’s actually pretty good. I mean it actually makes sense. Except the last bit, enthusiasm, seems intended more to denigrate (you only ’think’ you hear it, because of your enthusiasm) when it should be uplifting. But whatever. Progress. Say, I just thought of something! What if you state your point, write it all out, and delete it. Then restate your point, and post that instead! Half the posts, twice the quality. Sounds crazy but it just might work? |
So we can see there's nothing wrong with this audiophile. Thank you, mahgister. The exception that proves the rule. |
miller carbon: The word audiophile literally means lover of sound. Don't know that I can accept your premise, honestly. Okay. But at least I have one. What's yours again, anyway? |
The word audiophile literally means lover of sound. Can also mean sound enthusiast. Key being, either way, sound. Not lover of specifications. Not lover of gear. Not lover of explanations, theories, technology, or even music really. Just sound.
Which is hard to square with the uncomfortably large number of so-called audiophiles who it would seem the last thing they will ever do is trust their ears, let alone anyone else's.
And even crazier they do indeed hang out on websites posing as audiophiles while posting comments that could only have come from a misaudiotrope- one who hates sound.
So its a love hate relationship. Which, we got guys loving listening to music, and we got guys loving talking tech. The technobabblers hate not being able to explain what the audiophiles hear, which drives them crazy because they think they're better (more scientific, objective, etc) than the listeners.
Which makes it a trick question. The genuine audiophiles, there is nothing wrong with them. Not at all. How could there be? Its the fake ones, the ones who not only deny the evidence of their own ears but everyone else's as well, who make me shake my head and wonder what is wrong with audiophiles? |
@millercarbon: you keep addressing to "audiophiles". Please realize that what you are talking to, and debating with, are not audiophiles. They are anti-audiophiles. They are in a mission.
Just ask them to show you their system. You will see.... I know. As previously stated this is trolling on a Trumpian scale. Maybe its the to them unrecognizable adjective that let that one sail right over their heads. Like Drax in Guardians, "Nothing goes over my head. My reflexes are too fast. I would catch it." Then each and every one of them gets served a Michelin Three Star plate of Crow, to which they are as oblivious as Jake and Elwood having a food fight, "The little girl! How much for the little girl!" Only thing, Drax, Jake, and Elwood, they all have a sense of humor. Only thing these guys have a sense of is- well, nothing. Not one single thing. At this point there's really only two things left to say. That I can think of for now anyway. And if I may suspend trolling operations for a moment, there really are some here who are genuine audiophiles in the truest sense of the word. Duke, Tim, Frank, David, Michael, and a few more I'm sorry to say aren't coming to mind right now. You know who you are. These guys are all audiophiles in the truest sense of the word because of the way they listen, think, analyze, and always seek both to learn, and to share what they have learned. They are also way more kind and tolerant of, let me just say the full spectrum. I've learned a lot from all of them, and really appreciate it. Unfortunately they are a tiny minority. Which on the one hand is to be expected. In any field only a tiny minority ever reaches anywhere near the top of the heap. But that's not what I mean. Its not simply a question of competence or knowledge. Nor is it anything to do with money or systems or anything like that. The problem is like that guy said in the recent article, coming off like a snide know-it-all engineer. Putting one-upmanship on a pedestal while showing music a cold shoulder. At least for the time of this thread they are drawn like flies to road-kill. Another one destined to sail right over their heads. Oh well. More time they spend insulting each other here the less they have to pollute the other threads. |
People come to your home to socialize and listen to music. Audiophile removes speaker wires from cute little trestles, then changes cables, point out minor differences no one cares about. It sounded fine. He continues to try to educate guests, guests who were enjoying the music and camaraderie, who suddenly look baffled and say, "WTF, Nerd!".
Well, no, actually not even close. What happens is when people hear music like never before they always are stunned and want to know why and how is this possible. Normal people, I mean. Which is the subject of the thread, demonstrated now almost minute by minute, how horribly un-normal and wrong audiophiles are. So anyway the normal people see and hear and ask questions. Always. Which I answer. One of the more common answers being its not the speakers, or the amp, or even the turntable, its everything all together and especially all these seemingly tiny little details. Which I point out. This all usually happens in the time after one cut and while I'm getting another one ready. The only time I ever swapped cables it was when Caelin was there. And sorry but you'll just have to dream and imagine what its like having the CEO and cable designer who founded Shunyata Research over because that just ain't ever happening. To you. So eat your heart out. You're not worthy, and you can get up off the floor. Try real hard to think like a normal person for like one micro-second. Are you gonna tell Caelin, "Sorry, I know you brought your new cables and all but I got friends so stuff em back in the fancy plush bag and lets all listen to Billy Joel?" I don't think so. Honestly, it doesn't matter what I say, one of you morons will latch on like a leech to the least salient aspect and suck for all you're worth. Pathetic. But to wrap up, nobody is subjected to anything. I never play the same thing twice, that's for noobs and rubes, and with things like Cable Elevators the music isn't even interrupted at all. Which you would know, if you actually read for comprehension instead of for snide comment ideas. What is wrong with audiophiles? You guys are. |
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Eureka! Depressed from scanning (no one could stand to actually read it) the stinking pile of putrid pedantry posted by the usual suspects above I decided to try the How Science Got Sound Wrong thread https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/how-science-got-sound-wrongMe being nothing like the empty vessels who justify their sorry existence by spending all their free time ruining perfectly good threads I first went and read the linked article. https://www.fairobserver.com/more/science/neil-young-vinyl-lp-records-digital-audio-science-news-wil...It starts out pretty good and then a few paragraphs down comes this: The anti-Neil Young comments don’t sound as much like music appreciation. Rather, they have the snide sound of an annoying know-it-all engineer.
"The snide sound of an annoying know-it-all engineer." Wow. I mean, wow! I always say DYODD but in this case that would mean scrolling up and reading some of the preceding comments, but that could drop your IQ 15 points in 5 minutes and maybe even turn you off Audiogon for life. So maybe this one time just take my word for it when I say it is the snide sound of annoying know-it-all engineers. (In the "legend in his own mind" sense, I mean.) What is wrong with audiophiles? There you go. We now return you to our regularly scheduled puerile pontificating. |
Wow. On the scale of obtuseness you set a high bar. If you were any more dense stars would be careening down into the singularity between your ears.
Okay. Last chance then afraid I'm gonna have to ban you. You can post. Just won't be read. Not enough hours in the day to teach kindergarten math to anyone this slow. You will have to just get used to standing in the hall.
So like I said 6 were removed. One at a time. So, first one. On one side. Out of 6. Or one out of six if the periods are throwing you off. Which come to think of it.... are you having your period?
(Now watch him reply- not comprehending I really am no longer reading him. Well of course not. Told him flat out I was trolling, missed that one too. OTR. Fo sho.) |
Oh my goodness! Conflated Cable Elevators with cable elevators! Oh, the humanity! You got me, Clouseau!
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Based on the op's own words:- He cannot even get the number of cable elevators right (says it was 4 one time, 6 another time).
- A convenient "engineer" comes up with a red-wine challenge, that makes no sense with experienced wine drinkers especially at a white-wine tasting party.
When I look at those things, to me, this story just appears made up.
In my best Walter White: "You got me!" Or maybe if you would try half as hard to see the big picture as you do trying to find the slightest niche to argue you would understand. Read it again. There's Cable Elevators the trademarked product and there's cable elevators the generic ceramic insulators. So under my speaker cables on each side are three Cable Elevators and one generic cable elevator. So there's your four, and there's your six. The cable elevators sit real close to the amp and were left in place. Only the three Cable Elevators on each side were removed. Rather baffling how this is the one tiny detail out of everything that tipped you off to this all being one big fiction. Meanwhile the reality of being trolled on a Trumpian scale eludes you. Why, its almost enough to make me wonder if you might be related to a man named Clouseau? Oh well. Either way, still Exhibit A in the museum of What is wrong with audiophiles? |
dent dog has a request: Could we go back to cable elevators for a minute. Never tried any but with my relatively recent experience with power cords and interconnects being positive I might be interested. Especially if it expands my sound stage. Right. There's the brand name Cable Elevators sold in sets like this https://www.musicdirect.com/best-budget-tweaks-under-99/cable-elevators-cable-supports and there's also cable elevators sold on eBay as ceramic insulators which as you can see are the exact same thing for a lot less https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Vintage-Ceramic-Porcelain-Insulators-Brown-White/183480810613?_trkparms=a... Yeah turns out people collect the darn things as bric a brac, pieces of interest, decorations, etc. Because of this prices are all over the map. But also because of this you can find them in all kinds of shapes and sizes. They are also in electrical supply catalogs. Okay so what's the big deal? Well being a logical kinda guy I decided to test it out. Which you can do too. Tried wood, cups, carbon fiber, anything handy to support the cables up off the floor. Every single thing worked- more air, better image, more palpable presence. Finally after a while a dealer friend got Cable Elevators in said they were the best he'd heard so I bought a set. Easily the best thing yet. This was many years ago, late 1990's. More recently, moved some stuff around, got some much more expensive interconnects, bought some more of the generic sort off eBay. Made some little wood stands to hold the cables up and away from each other. As far as I can tell they are all very close in performance. If you go eBay look for the ones with the appearance you want and then look for electrical resistance. The resistance comes from forcing charges to travel the greatest distance over the most curves. They are all curved on the outside. The best ones will have extra curves on the inside so when you look underneath the bottom is curved back over on itself. Cable Elevators don't do this, the ones that do usually are more expensive. If you find them in a parts catalog with specs they will have the highest resistance, 40 to 80 to even 140kV. They seem to work by reducing static charges. Static charges definitely degrade sound, something you can test as easily as wafting some Static-Guard laundry spray over your cables. Another flat-out cool tweak to have on hand for those special late-night sessions. The improvement from a set of cable elevators is flat-out obvious. The people who deride this are everything that is wrong with audiophiles- ignorant, deaf, opinionated, uninformed, pretentious, I'm running out of derogatory things to say of anyone so obtuse as to not get it. Pay attention, almost never will they say they tried them and they don't work. Yet they see no problem telling you what's what. So add arrogant to their list of faults. As if their uninformed opinion matters. When every single person hears it, not most, not a lot, every single one, you know its for real. Like I said the first time, one friend noticed he could hear the difference removing just one. One. On one side. Out of 6. Sound stage collapses, midrange and treble loses its detailed smoothness, grain and glare increases, depth flattens and the whole stage that was deep and wide becomes flat and almost in your face. Since you had the experience of noticing what a good power cord can do then you for sure will appreciate this. Highly encourage you to experiment with a few things first. Possibly you will find enough improvement to stop right there and enjoy better sound almost for free. Main thing is as long as you try something and go with whatever it is that you hear and like then at least you will be a shining example for all the world to see what is right with audiophiles. |
Then why not be more clear and say "what's wrong with some audiophiles? Because, as I said, its pretty much all of them. Look, all you have to do is hang out with and watch and talk to people and its perfectly obvious everything I'm saying is true. Normal people are curious, amazed, moved by the music. Audiophiles do their best to critique and argue. Whether its music or systems or tech talk or whatever, its all one-upmanship with audiophiles. And I remain skeptical that any significant number of audiophiles hold the position at odds with the one I expressed on soundstaging. Case in point. In fact, not once in my entire life (decades of on-line in audiophile forums) can I remember an audiophile who was truly at odds with the account I gave. Beating a dead horse. What the @(#%&@#%(&( is wrong with audiophiles!!??? |
Sorry, but there comes a point when the usual suspects (see above) do such a fine job of ruining things I just tune out and skip over and so if I miss something, sorry. Anyway, another one, caught at random as it were: Six people in a room, when the cable elevators are removed, 3 hear a difference and 3 don’t. Who’s right? Is this a joke? Because its clearly stated everyone, no exceptions, hears the difference. So far at least everyone has. In fact its so starkly obvious that to drive the point home I took the time to describe how Leo not only could hear all 6 to nothing, but even could hear each individual one as they were being removed and replaced. So either this is a joke, or incredibly awful reading comprehension. Either way, here we go again: What is wrong with audiophiles??? |
prof- Yes I'm well aware of the rich history and layers of meaning behind the word audiophile. Problem is audiophiles are not all cut from the same cloth as J Gordon Holt. In fact it seems hardly any of them are. (And I bet a lot here don't even recognize the name of the Stereophile founder.) There are no straw man arguments here. None. The soundstage example, to pick just one at random, there was a whole long thread here not so long ago on the topic with a whole bunch of people, presumably audiophiles, who let's just say hold views clearly at odds with you and me. In fact, I will show you just how NOT straw man my arguments are. Look no further than this very page. Scroll up and you will find: And I would say “what’s wrong with subjective audiophiles” Who the heck else would spend multi thousands of dollars for something that has no measurable difference? Or that they cannot repeatedly identify without visibly knowing it’s there?
This one arrogant post does exactly what I've been saying: ridicules subjectivity (what people actually hear!) in favor of measurements, AND throws in double-blind testing, all in one beautifully condemning post. The poster should read Holt, and feel the shame. I'd look for more but to read cleeds, glupson, geoffkait, well they're just not paying me enough to endure that level of suffering. Being as all these are audiophiles only makes me want to scream from the roof tops- What is wrong with audiophiles!?!?!?! |
You feelin’ ok, millercarbon?
This particular rant seems a tad unhinged :)
I find it awfully strange that you keep accusing “audiophiles” of denying the subjective experience approach - “If I believe I heard it then it’s true!” - when of anything that is the norm. It’s why audipholes get so much grief from non-audiophiles.
And, sure lots of people can be absolutely certain they experienced something. That’s how the human mind works. Benny Hinn gets a lot of mileage out of it - fills stadiums! Feeling certain isn’t necessarily the best guide to reality. And btw, many people skeptical of expensive cables and the tweakier side of high end audio do indeed have experience with what they criticize.
But, hey, you are on a roll so: take the floor.
;-)
I take it from the emoticons that you're joking. But seriously, set aside the serial straw man arguments, the fact is its not being sure of hearing- quite the opposite. Its second-guessing, doubting, discounting and explaining away what you're hearing. Normal people, when they hear something the first thing they do is try and describe what it is that they're hearing. Which admittedly tends to be a challenge. Normally people haven't really given much thought to things like location, harmonic development, dynamics, let alone subtle stuff like palpable presence, extension, grain or glare. Normal people would never say they are getting listener fatigue from all the grain and glare. What a normal person WOULD say on the other hand is, "I could listen to this all night!" Or, "It sounds like she's RIGHT THERE!" The audiophile, on the other hand (and yes I'm generalizing - but not by much!) would spout nonsense like sound staging is all in your head, then waste the next 15 minutes going nowhere yammering on about the necessity of implementing double-blind oversampled acoustical isolation yada yada. Meanwhile the normal guys reaction is to ask how old is Jennifer Warnes- and is she married. Which actually happened. The women, they usually just cry, or close to it. So I'm trying hard to think of a time when an audiophile truly enjoyed listening to my system like that. Because with normal people it happens all the time, over and over again, for going on like 30 years now. For damn sure it was nowhere near as good in the 90's as now. Yet in all that time I can think of maybe one audiophile who reacted like a normal person. Just sat there as if under a spell. "Please play another. Please," he said. Although maybe in hindsight he wasn't really an audiophile. He'd just gotten into it. Not enough time for audiophilia nervosa to develop into fully fledged pseudophile derangement syndrome. I don't know. Why I'm asking. But, think of it: audiophilia nervosa. Unlike pseudophile derangement syndrome, I didn't just make that one up. Its been around a while. A very long while. Which has got to make you wonder ... wait for it... - What is wrong with audiophiles?! |
Au contraire mon frere! Are you triggered? Because you’ve completely misconstrued what should be quite clear.
Somewhere between the giant Sony ceiling mounted projector and the enormous 9 foot screen on the wall, somewhere in there a person might maybe get the impression painting me as anti-home theater just maybe might be a bit of a stretch.
Also if you’ve been reading my posts you’ll know they’re all focused on getting the best sound for the dollar, regardless of how its done. Time and again the emphasis is on quality, and value.
So my crime according to you is wanting the best sound, multi-channel or otherwise. In other words not being slavishly tied into the latest greatest format. In other words thinking for myself.
Guilty as charged.
But for being taken to task over this I have to ask, What is wrong with audiophiles???? |
a number of weekend guests noted my system sounded better the next day...I never mentioned I left the amp on overnight and that it had only been on an hour when they first heard it...same CD at same volume...
Exactly. Similar story, friend one time said he thought one track sounded better than the rest. Cleaner, clearer. He had been asking me why some recordings sound so much better than others. Well he was right it did sound better so instead of guessing told him well sometimes they put recording details in the liner notes let's have a look, and... what do you know, that one track was recorded direct to half-track. All the rest was mix-downs. So of course it sounded better. |
The OP has done quite the opposite, majority of his posts stems from his biased opinion instead of actual experience with the product or accessory under discussion.
TOTAL FAIL! So total in fact it has nothing to do with audiophiles at all. If there's one thing for sure we can say about the OP its that the responses of people vs audiophiles actually happened. Its reported fact, not opinion. So this one is pure reading comprehension fail. But even worse, "majority of his posts" another total fail, as no one here comes even close to me in saying over and over again to go and listen and figure it out for yourself. Its almost like whatever you write, this guy reads the opposite. Please try and stick to the topic: What is wrong with audiophiles? |
Ordinary people should be so blown away by your system I doubt they would say it sounded any different because you took off a cable elevator. Have them close their eyes next time instead of you talking it up first.
As a matter of fact what happens is they come in and "Oooh! Ahhh!" and sit down and I turn off the lights and they listen in the dark. Well there is a lava lamp. And LEDs. But basically dark. So this is another great comment to ask once again What is wrong with audiophiles??? Because in this case its been made perfectly clear these things did in fact happen. Not just once either but repeatedly, so often I’ve lost count, and over a period of many years. So who in their right mind would have the arrogance to say, "I doubt they would..." Only someone who either cannot read, or who is calling me a liar. What is wrong with audiophiles is generic. Now I have to ask, What is wrong with YOU, delkal? Casual listeners used to iPods and AVRs don’t even know what to listen for. 95 % of the "ordinary people" have no idea what a soundstage or imaging is. Right. So now the question is, "Do YOU?" Soundstage and imaging are words. Words that audiophiles banter about because like every other specialized language the one word "soundstage" is a whole lot more efficient than "the believable illusion of sounds coming from all across the front of the room, with the sound of each instrument and singer appearing to come from its own unique location in the room, in width and depth, as if it really was there in real life." A phenomenon that was there all along. So audiophiles know a few specialized words. Keep in mind however that specialized lingo is there to facilitate communication between the adept. Superior vocabulary does not make you superior. For the record, nobody ever, not one person in 30 years of doing this, has ever needed to be told to listen for imaging, soundstaging, or any of that. What they all do, every single one of them, is prove beyond a shadow of a doubt they are in fact hearing it. They do this a million ways. They point. They get up and look around. They take pictures (a recent irritating habit, I am about ready to ban cell phones from my listening room). They get up and move around while the music is playing coming closer and closer moving side to side trying to figure out the boundaries of this illusion. One even got up and looked under the blanket covering the TV, so convinced he was there was a speaker hiding behind it. So let there be no doubt, no doubt whatsoever that ordinary people and casual listeners hear imaging and soundstaging. They do. The arrogance of someone, to assume otherwise. What is wrong with audiophiles!!!!! auxinput has an answer! Well one of them anyway, for sure: I think a lot of what has happened here with "audiophiles" is "perception bias". They get locked onto a perception of what something "should be" instead of the actuality of "what is". This means that whatever idea or product or brand has been suggested or documented somewhere (i.e. professional reviews, engineering measurements, etc.) becomes an influence to almost an obsession where the "audiophile" is no longer listening but responding to an idea. A lot of this is human nature and is difficult to change. The downside here is that some people get so obsessed that it becomes a religious crusade in which everyone else needs to be converted to their ideas. This is an unfortunate bi-product of what has happened on this forum. Definitely a great big grain of truth here. I get pushback all the time from audiophiles for saying to disregard all the reasons, just go and listen, because the reasons are almost always all BS. Normal people, never. Normal people all seem to know there are things we simply do not understand. Normal people are, er, perfectly normal in this. Not audiophiles. Audiophiles seem to want to believe the BS. Or maybe its not just that they want to drink the Kool-Aid. Maybe its also they like to feel superior, and pseudo-tech talk does that for them. For sure I have been at audio club demos where guys who had just heard the round cones sound totally better than the pointy spike cones would nevertheless stand there pontificating on how necessary the pointy spikes are to "grounding" or "isolation" whatever. Yada yada. Like you didn’t just hear it. Then when another one says well maybe what you’re hearing isn’t more detail its hyped attack and treble they look at him like he’s from Mars. Which makes no sense if you’re a listener, but total sense if you’re an audiophile locked onto a perception of what "should be". Good one! |
So the non-audiophile, average human being talked about the soundstage collapsing and image depth changing? Yes, very interesting! Not in those exact words, but yes, definitely. A more literally accurate quote would be, "Its like before it was like the guy is RIGHT THERE and then he wasn't, well not as much, like..." and with arm gestures and so I tightened it up a bit. Which brings up yet another "what's wrong with audiophiles" because the #1 thing everyone always finds most amazing and enjoyable is imaging. Yet there's audiophiles who actually question its importance. They should try talking to normal people. They will look at you like you have two heads or something. Like, what is wrong with this guy? Which is what I'm asking. Very well said Miller.
Gets my vote for a top class thread OP. Thanks! Miller what a trouble maker you are!:-) I totally agree with you though.I've heard/seen the same thing happen at my house. I don't doubt it. Not for an instant. One little party, was about 50/50 audiophiles and Porschephiles. Caelin (the Shunyata Research founder and CEO, that Caelin) was there with some new power cords, and we tried them out. What I normally do is try and play whatever the one in the sweet spot will enjoy. Which is never the same track over and over again. So when doing demos, same thing. Maybe one time paused and swapped cords in the middle of a song. Never once played anything twice. Couple times even made a change between songs on different albums. Always the normal folks just sat and listened and responded to whatever they were hearing. Which usually was pretty amazing. I bought one of his power cords on the spot. But all the audiophiles, they were rolling their eyes so much one of my buddies asked me afterwards, "What the $*@T*( is wrong with that guy? He was about to jump out of his skin." Another one was outright mocking certain audiophiles. What I find most interesting is the behavior they were mocking is so common among audiophiles. Not all. But for many its not just common but practically their defining characteristic. I would say the problem is no one here, unless you know some of us in real life, can be at your home hearing the changes you describe. Now this is exactly what I'm talking about. I had this one friend, he was so into wine and champagne he had this annual champagne tasting party. Everyone would bring a bottle. He was so knowledgeable he would open them in order. A lot like the way I will play recordings of increasingly good quality as the night goes along, he opened the sparking wines, then the Champagnes, then the Doms. I learned so much from this. In all the many years since, and all the dozens of people I've told about this, not one has ever said, "Well unless you were there in real life tasting the wines he was pouring at his house...." Not once! Now, I'll grant you, one wine enthusiast did suggest a brown bag double-blind test to see if we all really did prefer the wine be allowed to breathe before drinking. (Spoiler: we did.) But then he was an engineer, and we all saw this more as an interesting extra little challenge and excuse to open an extra bottle than as anything else. Not a one of us ever questioned our own sense experience. The way audiophiles do all the time. Do you see how wrong this is? This is the sort of behavior normal people deride and mock when they see it. Its just so out of touch. The only problem I have with guests these days is the difficulty in prying their jaws off of the floor. :-)
Step up your game, Frank. Get stuff that looks cool enough they'll be drooling so much jaw hits the floor, slides right off. |
