Mpit,
What did you drive your B&Ws with? I know the 801/801d/802ds pretty well. They do need some driving. Bi amping helps depending on the amp.
B&W has a "sound" but as to any of the speakers you mention blowing them away, including the phasey or defuse MBL I find hard to believe. Different yes.
To truly have such a strong opinion of B&W would mean you went to great efforts to maximise on each speakers performance. They are reference speakers and will show up equipment in the chain.
From your post I see no information which leads me to feel you seeked help from the right people set them up. To squeeze the last 10% out of any speaker takes effort and you mention none.
I am not saying they are the greatest speaker ever built, but they are not as you describe either. |
Gwng8,
what amp were you using to drive them? Being devils advocate... Could it have been your source or amp that was clinical?
Which speakers would you say are the opposite of clinical and what did you use to drive them? |
Baranowski,
Exactly the point I have made in earlier posts. This thread and others like it are useless without full descriptions of model and amps driving them etc.
I have heard many speaker systems sound bad. Many of those times it was not the speaker that was bad. You are only as good as the weakest link. A great speaker under powered or over damped will sound at best average.
Even the ZR1 would be slow if driven by a blind person, or driven in the snow, or across a ploughed field. Come on people. Lets have proper information. |
Missioncoonery,
"General thoughts" on a speaker would assume the speaker is being used with equipment of similar quality. I did not mention room or cables.
So from your comment ( missioncoonery- "Personally I wouldnt take em if free...") we are to deduce you think they are bad. But some of the finest recording studios on the planet would disagree. So now who do we believe? Your opinion or the opinion of gifted professionals?
So with no insight into the way they are being used either you are deaf or the pros are deaf. Ummm... Which amp were you using? |
Rhljazz,
The only ionic tweeter I have heard is the acapella. I know of no other tweeter to sound as good. It's so pure. Stunning clarity and extension. But the problem is mating it to the lower drivers.
IMHO the acapella fails because the tweeter is so good. The xover just shows up the difference in speed. Just like the subs on the old hybrid Martin Logan's failed at keeping up with the ESL upper panel.
A speaker is all about balance. So maybe as you say a silk dome sounds better in a speaker, but probably because it mates better with the other drivers.
But here we are again discussing the finer points of exotic tweeters when we have people saying "I wouldn't have em for free..."
For all we know these types of opinions are about the lowest budget B&W when we are talking about the diamond tweeters which are only found in the reference series. To post your opinion you must add which model you are discussing and what you are using it with. |
Mapman,
I guess deffuse is really what I mean when comparing the MBL to some other designs. Especially if compared to the AG Trio. Not being palpable is my point.
Phasey is probably not the correct term. I associate MBL with that thin but airy sound as if phase or a form of comb filtering causes there not to be weight.
To explain the sonic difference i mean, take the Sehneiser HD800 headphones and compare them to the Audeze LCD3 headphones. The HD800 has a detailed air/thinness where as the LCD3 are rich, very detailed and organic by having much more flesh on the bone. Thicker sounding I guess. |
Hi Mapman,
Please don't think I'm am saying the MBL is bad. Although I doubt there is much value for what you get. Placement with omi speakers and dipoles can create problems.
Surely all things being equal, reference speakers should(!) pretty much sound the same. Because hopefully they are not editing what is passing through them.
That being said as I mentioned in my post comparing the Sehneiser HD800 to the Audeze LCD3, you would not confuse these reference headphones sonically. They sound very different.
You would have to be mad to say the HD800s are rubbish and utterly bonkers to say the LCD3 are rubbish. You could say the HD800s are tilted upwards towards spacial cues and air. My experience of the MBL. I have heard the Graz ribboned Apogee Diva sound this way too when the ribbons where not run in.
So I guess once we know a particular trait in a speaker (once placement etc are taken into account) then matching of auxiliary equipment becomes as important.
The B&W 801d and the 802d mated with the big Classe reference 400 monos ( as used in Abbey road studios) sounds balanced. But I have also used the 802d in Studios using Bryston with a much less success. Leaving the 802d sounding strained and metallic.
I have a friend who uses the 802d with 2x CJ 350 SS amps which sound very creamy and smooth. So what we have to say is the B&w D speakers are very transparent and rely heavily on the quality of the amp driving it.
Personally I like B&W speakers. Good honest performance. |
Missioncoonery,
" An argument as old and tired as the brand". "Abbeys heyday was 3 decades ago..." My friend you are misinformed.
They main reason Abbey road still exists is because it has everything. It is one of Londons only studios apart from Air that can hold a large symphony orchestra, and is home to some of the finest collections of mics, resources and people.
Dont for a minute underestimate them. Abbey road can have anything they want. Every idiot tries to get their equipment in there.
Nearly every prestige film score recorded in the UK is done there. (Lord of the rings/Harry Potter, Star Wars etc) So all the finest engineers and producers go there because they get the results they need. This includes the monitoring. All you have to do is look in the utility rooms or under the stairs to find any speaker (admittedly many forms of top end B&W speakers).
Do you think that a manufacturer like B&W, with the experience they have could somehow not be able to make speaker systems to compete? They have probably forgotten more than most guys know.
B&W actually build their own drivers. Not OEM guys plonking in other people's parts( aside from caps which are made to their specs by mundorf).
Of course monitoring is a very personal thing, but you cannot be serious if you believe they haven't made a speaker worth auditioning since the 80s. That's just daft. |
Missioncoonery,
At least maybe we have narrowed down which B&W series you are talking about. The budget ones which are now made in china. Then there's the magico dealer... I'm not sure magico even make a speaker as cheap as any B&W reference range? In fact the last magico I heard was a 2 1/2 way floor stander which cost more than 2 x the price of the flagship B&W N801d.
I find it hard to take your opinion seriously because you have given us little or no information as to what your general thoughts are? Well, other than you wouldn't have them even if they were given to you.
Yeah it's a funny line and we all like a laugh, but its empty of anything serious..." like a heart attack".
Remember an established brand means you know they are likely be there in the next five mins.
The Abbey road reference is not to tell you what a great speaker sounds like, but to clarify the fact that the 800 series are used by professionals who could have anything they ask for. Therefore are unlikely to be as bad as you portrait, otherwise the magico's would be there. |
Andyprice44,
All the conflicting views above on what B&W speakers are like can only tell
you that they are transparent, sensitive to set up and upstream electronics.
I do get the feeling that some above posts are not speaking about the 800
series though. The 802D may be easier to use bass wise in a smaller
room, compared to the 801D which is more likely to boom near room
boundaries.
Bare in mind they are demanding speakers to drive and need good amps to
power them. So probably you are looking at SS amplification that doubles
power into load. If driven well they will sing.
Good luck. Let us know how you get on. |
Missioncooner,
"Not my cup of tea" is not bad. Honest at least! What would have been awesome is something like "not my cup of tea because..."
If you asked me what do you think about x product? And I had experience with x product. If I just said its crap, or I don't like it, it doesn't get us very far.
Opinions are like ar*eholes... everyone has one, but nice to get some idea when you have none. To me that's what the 'gon is for.
Sorry to be an arse. I mean it in the best possible way. |
