Kal, all audio is anecdotal. Again this is not a science, it is a taste choice. |
Years ago at CES Murata demonstrated their supertweeter. Listeners heard a musical passage without them and then again with them. The passage had more air, sparkle, and life with them. As we were all murmuring about how something that has no response below 15K Hz, someone thought to ask to hear the Murata by themselves. The guy running the demonstration said, "You are." We all focused on what we were hearing. There was no music to be heard, only zips, pops, and tizzes. I was very difficult to believe this would add to the sound we had heard. He reran the demonstration and again the Murata's benefits were undeniable. I bought a pair on the spot.
Initially, I had Beauhorn Virtuosos with Lowther single drivers. The Muratas did wonders with them. When I sold them, initially I just set the Muratas aside thinking that I would probably sell them. Much later after I got adjusted to my Acapella LaCompanellas with frequency response out to 30K Hz. Out of curiosity, I decided to try the Muratas with the LaCompanellas. They had the same benefits with the LaCampanellas! I have repeatedly to find where they add to the sound. I have them outboard of the main speakers and 36" up from the floor.
I have a friend who says the Townshends are better, but I will probably just stick with the Muratas.
There is some research that would suggest that although your ears probably are lucky to hear up to 16K Hz, that high end extension to 100K Hz does register in listener enjoyment of music. I strongly believe this is so.
I think that you should have no response below 15K Hz in a supertweeter. |
Mlsstl, it is my understanding that there is no crossover in the Muratas. I have also seen the frequency response curve on them. There is some output below 15K Hz but very little. As I said, when they only are playing you hear no music. I have tried it here and continue to hear nothing of the public or even of the beat. I have never heard a demonstration of the Townshends only, perhaps they do have something since they much have a crossover as there is a selector switch. |
I didn't say that the output of the Murata only dropped below 15K Hz. It is dropping sharply at 15K. Yes, I suspect it is the mechanical characteristics rather than a crossover and thus my speculation about the Townshends.
I doubt seriously if you can duplicate the effects of the Muratas or other supertweeters without frequencies above 15k Hz. I do agree that the original poster should try them. |
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Stanwal, the Ionic tweeter or Corona or plasma, is not a supertweeter. Many come well down into the audible range. I think there is a good reason to distinguish tweeters and supertweeters. The Reference 3A Grand Veenas, have both tweeters and the Murata supertweeters.
I do entirely agree about mating plasma tweeters with other drivers. Acapella uses the plasma in every speaker above the LaCampanellas, which I own. In all but the Trilon at $160,000 this tweeter stands out as exceptional and draws your attention to it alone. This is the reason I bought the Acapellas that I did.
Sns, again I think my satisfaction with the Muratas comes from them not reproducing music. They only begin to come into play at 15K Hz. |
Sns, since my experience is limited to using the Muratas with the Beauhorns and then the Acapellas, it is hardly generalizable. Earlier when I had Altec VATers, however, and tried the Ionovacs with them, I did have unsatisfactory interactions in the top frequencies. I had assumed it was because you could hear music from the Ionovacs, which came down to 7000 Hz, if I remember correctly.
Faziod, mine is the same experience, at least so far, with the Muratas. |
Jaybo, not in my experience. |
Stanwal, I can just hear 16K and my speakers are supposedly good to 40k Hz, I too have had several tweeters and super tweeters, but the Murata demo was my first real experience where I had to have them. I have to assume that their having no music they reproduce is the key. I have also to assume that information beyond our "hearing" is contributing to our pleasure. |
Stanwal, nevertheless at the demonstration all we could hear was pops, etc. Most of us, as I said, did not notice that they were on and still playing the music. As I said there is at least one study that I have read that shows an awareness of such high frequencies, but off cd how do you even get these frequencies?
I too will rest my case, but I think the lowest frequency that a super tweeter is key to its benefit in the system. |
Johnk, what you say is true only for those supertweeters that extend down into the music range. I have had many of those over time and never found satisfaction even when I used a crossover. The Muratas and Townshends have been no problem.
Aball, do try a pair of supertweeters sometime but be sure that they do not come into the music range. Or at least make certain that one pair you try don't. |
Mlsstl, I was suggesting that many people's difficulties with supertweeters derive from those that have music in what they reproduce. That is certainly my personal experience.
I have used the Murata with Beauhorns which meet you rapid roll off speaker and with the Acapella LaCampanellas which "supposedly" extent to 40k Hz. The benefits on the Acapella are not as great as on the Beauhorns but still are something that I will not do without.
I grant the logic of what you say but not the reality. As I say all too often, I act on what I hear not based on logic or out limited understand of sound reproduction. Do listen to such a supertweeter if you find it illogical, I won't mind in the least. If you do, however, and like it, please explain why you do. |
Kr4, I haven't a clue what "inappropriate" means in any scientific sense. I suspect that by corroborated you mean replicated, but again I don't understand what this has to do with anything except to say that better experiments are needed and perhaps better instrumentation is urgent.
The only value I personally derive from various internet sites is the personal experiences of others. I do draw clues as to whether I care what someone reports from what they say and what their equipment looks like. This is, of course, anecdotal, the least value defense of a hypothesis and an early level of science. IMHO this is where we are in the science of audio reproduction, but I do need my music so I do as well as I can. |
Stanwal, the fallacy of his argument is saying, "These super tweeters typically operate in parallel with the existing tweeter over about an octave
bandwidth, and may destructively interfere with the primary tweeter output." This is what you have continually argued also and it is just not true of the Muratas and, I think, the Townshends. |
Mlsstl, my Acapellas extent supposedly to 30K, so there is overlap. But the Muratas play no music. You hear nothing that you would mistake as music on them when played alone. I participated in a demonstration at CES several years ago when I initially heard this. Martin Colloms whom I respect greatly is right in my previous experience with super tweeters. I always preferred the speakers without the super tweeters.
The Muratas worked well with the Lowther drivers in my Beauhorns which were rolling off above 14K Hz. When I got the Acapellas, I thought they would be of no use. Much to my surprise, they added greatly to the soundstage width and realism.
As always, I really don't care what the logic you and Martin state means if I hear otherwise. I know full-well the limits of our understandings.
I don't really disagree with you, I think your explanation fails to account for observations. I know from my science training that an explanation that fails to account for observations is a failed explanation whether or not it is broadly accepted. |
Readers should do a search and read Audiofool's posting history for a clearer picture of what little he contributes.
If he doesn't sell it, it is worthless.
He is juvenile also.
Don b, there were two pairs of speakers at the RMAF with Murata supertweeters in them. One was the Reference 3A Grand Veena, which always are among the best sounding rooms. I forget the other speaker's manufacturer. |
My doctoral degree is in political science and one of my undergrad degrees was physics. I have taught research methods at the graduate and undergraduate levels for 42 years. One thing that science does not recognize is authorities and I suspect that Martin Collums would not expect to be declared one. Data is what speaks. Certainly, he is speaking of what he has heard and trying to make sense out of it. So am I.
I did point out where he was wrong. You seem entirely hidebound by you belief that all supertweeters are the same and that nothing matters beyond 16K Hz. I cannot imagine how you would ignore the possibility that you are wrong in your explanation as this is the very basis of science but I guess it fits with your theological studies.
Fundamentally, as this is a hobby and a matter of tastes, however, I rise to your being dismissive of what others hear. Frankly sir, I don't give a damn what you think. |
Markphd, your last paragraph is all that I originally meant to say. Had it not been for the demonstration I heard at CES, I would never have bought the Muratas.
As usual my strong insistence that if you hear a benefit it is all that should influence your purchasing decision has gotten me in trouble with those who say you cannot hear a difference if there is no "conventionally accepted theory" to explain why this should be so. This "orthodoxy" is quite unscientific despite the insistence of those advocating it that it is "good" science. I am not a novice in science as I have explained.
I should also note that I decided at the eleventh hour to get my doctorate in political science rather than psychology although I took all my methods training in psychology and had many more seminars in that field. I am well aware of the mind's "jumping to conclusions" and the influence of saliency on the senses. |
