Wendell Diller: "You don't wanna put a subwoofer with a Magneplanar; it doesn't work."


In an interview with Chris Martens of The Absolute Sound and Hi-Fi + (viewable on YouTube), Magnepan’s head of promotion Wendell Diller (he is also involved in product development) discusses the company’s upcoming new product: the Ultra Wideband Bass System (UBS). Though the thread heading quote (taken from the interview) would lead one to assume the UBS is not a sub, it in fact is. Huh?

Wendell is of course referring to all "normal" subs, normal meaning sealed and ported enclosures with dynamic (cone) woofers. Sorry REL enthusiasts, that includes yours. ;-) Wendell goes on to say:

"’Cause you’re mixing a monopole with a dipole." Long term Audiogoners may recall I (and a few others) have been singing the praises of the GR Research/Rythmik Audio OB/Dipole Servo-Feedback Subwoofer for a few years now. I have been especially adamant in opining that this particular sub is THE sub for any and all dipole loudspeakers, and have given the technical reasons why such is the case. I won’t repeat it here, as I grow weary of wasting my time. For those seriously interested, a search of old threads will reward you with my wisdom. ;-)

Wendell goes on to say: "A dipole woofer is not a new idea." Indeed not. Danny Richie of GR Research was already designing loudspeakers employing dipole woofers (and dipole midrange and tweeter drivers) and selling them as DIY kits when he heard about a new servo-feedback subwoofer (again, not a new idea. At least in general terms.), one being offered by another company located in Texas: Rythmik Audio. Rythmik’s Brian Ding had designed (and patented) a new method of applying feedback to a woofer, and Danny proposed the two of them put their big brains together and develop the world’s first OB/Dipole subwoofer to include servo-feedback. Few have heard it, but I’m tellin’ ya, it was a game changer. Wendell and Magnepan are late to the party (they are not alone. Read on.), but better late than never.

I and other early Magneplanar Tympani owners (I bought my T-I’s in 1972) were permanently spoilt by the quality of the bass reproduced by those big bass panels (two 16" wide x 6’ tall panels per channel). I recorded my 26" Gretsch bass drum with a small capsule condenser mic plugged directly into a Revox A77, and I have never heard a cone woofer reproduce the sound of that bass drum as do Tympani’s (I now own a pair of T-IVa). Those bass panels are also unmatched when it comes to the lower registers of a grand piano, an upright bass, and in fact all low-frequency percussive sounds. Even the "shudder" produced by the massive organ pipes heard in cathedrals and churches. Tympani bass panels are also unmatched at reproducing the "texture" of bass instruments.

Magnepan now offers the incredible 30.7 (I heard it when Wendell took it "on tour" a few years ago), which is an updated version of the Tympani’s. But Wendell himself no longer has a room big enough for a pair of 4’ wide panel loudspeakers, so embarked on a development project to create an alternative. The result was the concept loudspeaker, temporarily referred to as the "30.7 For Condos". It is the midrange/tweeter panel from the 30.7, with a new dipole subwoofer in place of the huge 30.7 bass panels.

This Magnepan dipole sub will be made available for augmenting all the company’s loudspeakers, in a number of driver incarnations. The debut model incorporates 8 woofers per sub (I’ve heard either 6.5" or 8" woofers), the drivers powered by an on-board amp, with crossover and DSP facilities. Wendell: "This concept really works because of DSP. With DSP you can fix the time/phase/amplitude problems so it plays nicely with whatever the panel might be." Not to be contrary, but the Rythmik Audio A370 plate amp that is included in the GR Research/Rythmik Audio OB/Dipole Subwoofer provides controls for optimizing the time/phase/amplitude relationship between loudspeaker and sub, and does so without any digitization of the signal.

Wendell: "I see this dipole as the proverbial fork in the road for Magnepan because it can keep up with any of the panels. This concept is unique." Uh, ’fraid not Wendell ;-) .

Ya know, Magnepan is not the only maker of magnetic-planar loudspeakers in the world. Bruce Thigpen of Eminent Technology, though very impressed with the Magneplanars, thought he could improve on them. Bruce developed his own m-p driver, imo better designed and built than those of Magnepan (I have both). His LFT driver is a vast improvement on the design still used by Magnepan, but to keep the size of his LFT-8b loudspeaker "manageable" he compromised by using an 8" woofer installed in a sealed enclosure to reproduce 180Hz downward.

Great minds think alike? ;-) Already available from ET is Bruce’s new dipole sub, also employing DSP. ET’s sub is being called a dipole, but I don’t know whether or not it is an OB. The sub is a bolt-on replacement for the stock LFT-8b sub, and retails for $1500/pr. The LFT-8 shipped with the new dipole sub is named the LFT-8c, and it retails for $3999. So an owner of the 8b (which originally sold for $2499, now $2999) pays no penalty for now buying the sub to use with that models still-identical m-p panels.

For planar loudspeaker owners who crave full-range bass, but both lack the space necessary for huge planar bass panels and find monopole subs unsatisfactory for use with planar loudspeakers, you now have options. The GR Research/Rythmik Audio Servo-Feedback Subwoofer is killer, but is available as a kit only. The required OB frames are available as flat pack, and are simple to assemble and paint. But for those who want plug & play, the Magnepan UBS is certainly good news. As is the ET dipole sub for current LFT-8b owners. For planar loudspeakers owners who find monopole subs fine with panels, either Wendell Diller is wrong or you are. ;-)

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Showing 7 responses by bdp24

@josh358: Great post at 11:01 am (and 11:12 too)!

You make an important correction to my saying (in my explanation of dipole cancellation) that bass frequencies are omnidirectional. As you state, it is not that bass frequencies are omni, but rather that sealed/ported subs behave as omni sources because of the woofer enclosure dimensions vs. bass frequency "dimensions" (much larger than the enclosure. In fact, much larger than most room dimensions). This topic requires more time and space to fully discuss than most would care for (again, Siegfried Linkwitz’s writings on the subject are readily available for those interested), but there are a couple of points I would like to make:

One of the benefits of dipole loudspeakers is their radiation pattern: the aforementioned figure-of-8. At higher frequencies that side-speaker null (the dipole front and rear waves meeting on the sides, and due to opposing polarities cancelling one another; +1 and -1 equal 0) greatly reduces the problem of side wall reflections. The QUAD 57 (and the Sanders ESL loudspeaker) is well known to be a single-person loudspeaker: the speaker needs to be pointed directly at the listener, as its frequency response takes a dose dive as you move off axis).

At bass frequencies, those nulls almost-entirely eliminate the excitation of room modes in the room’s left-to-right axis. Fewer room modes = less "room boom". On the other hand, as Josh points out, that dipole back wave creates a problem that non-dipoles don’t (at least not to the same degree): the rear wave (half of the loudspeaker’s output) reflecting off the wall behind the loudspeaker and traveling back to the panel, where its phase relationship with the front wave can cause either frequency reinforcement, or instead cancellation. Ay carumba!

For that reason, dipole/front wall distance experimentation is required to optimize sound quality. But you audiophiles are use to and expect that, right? ;-) But here’s a basic rule: if at all possible, a dipole should be no closer to the wall behind it than 5’, minimum. Why? Because 1- sound travels at approximately 1’ per millisecond; 2- for two sounds to be perceived as separate events, they need to be separated in time by at least 10ms. At a dipole/wall distance of 5’, the dipole rear wave travels the 5’ to the wall behind it, then the 5’ back to the dipole, where it is now separated in time from the front wave by the 10ms required for the two waves to be perceived a separate entities, rather than the rear wave being a "smearing" of the front wave. Dipole 101. ;-)

Dipole cancellation occurs on both left and right sides of a dipole, and results in reduced SPL output. Danny Richie (GR Research) and Brian Ding (Rythmik Audio) advise that their OB/Dipole sub produces 1/4 the output (fed the same signal) as the same driver installed in a sealed enclosure. The answer is of course to use more of them. Hey, its only money, right? ;-) Some fanatics use GRR/Rythmik OB subs stacked floor to ceiling.

The dipole cancellation phenomenon can be tailored in a number of ways. In the old days dipole designers/builders used a wide baffle (in the DIY world that remains common), the dimensions of which would determine the frequency at which cancellation would occur: the greater the distance between the front and rear drivers, the lower the frequency at which cancellation occurs. Danny Richie found an unbraced large panel to be sonically unacceptable (he is very intolerant of resonances), so uses the same style H-frame to house his dual 12" woofers as did Siegfried Linkwitz with his dual 10’s (to see an H-frame is to understand why it is named that). Both designers settled on roughly the same H-frame dimensions: deep enough to lower the cancellation frequency to where they wanted it, but shallow enough to make the resulting cavity resonance occur at a frequency above the passband of the sub (in the GRR/Rythmik, 300Hz). Linkwitz’s H-frame is constructed of a single layer of 3/4" MDF, but Danny---the perfectionists that he is---specifies 1-1/2"

Magneplanar Tympani enthusiasts long ago discovered that if you position one side of the Tympani bass panels right up against a side wall, you would prevent dipole cancellation on that side, resulting in increased SPL output. Another means of increasing the panel output is to brace them to the room structure, often to the wall behind them. Yes, hardcore Tympani enthusiasts are a fanatical bunch (Hi Josh ;-) .

When sold for use in the OB/Dipole Sub, Brian Ding installs in his Rythmik A370 plate amp a "Dipole Cancellation Compensation Circuit". It is basically a filter which is a mirror-image of the roll-off endemic in the OB/Dipole’s output characteristics, which allows the sub to reach quite low in frequency, at relatively-high maximum SPL capabilities. Not Rock ’n’ Roll concert levels (I saw NRBQ in a medium size club last night, and it was pretty damn loud. Not Ramones !LOUD!, but loud), but as much output as most of us need (want is a different matter ;-) .

I of course don’t yet know how the upcoming Magnepan dipole woofer sounds, or for that matter the OB from Eminent Technology (Bruce also offers a "true subwoofer", for the frequencies below 20Hz!). But the GR Research/Rythmik Audio Servo-Feedback OB/Dipole Sub is a hard act to follow. I just wish I had a room big enough for the Tympani bass panels, as they require no augmentation (well, unless you need 30Hz and below), and remain my low frequency reproduction yardstick. The GRR/Rythmik OB/Dipole comes closest to matching the Tympani bass panels as any woofers/subs I’ve yet heard, far better than the woofer towers of my now-sold (back to Brooks Berdan, from whom I bought them) Infinity RS-1b’s (also a servo-feedback design).

Hey Jim, this thread reminds me of why I emphasized with your decision to stop posting. I myself refrain off-and-on, and it's about to again be on. 

@secretguy, you dragged yourself into it by posting "You noticed the same level of blowhardiness too?" in response to the @pedroeb post, which you reposted. It's okay, all is forgiven. Attention @pedroeb: that too is a joke.

Hi there Jim! I’m about to head over to Portland to see NRBQ tonight (in the same club in which I last year saw Mary Gauthier.). Are they making it up to the Seattle area? Only Terry Adams remains, so I don't know what to expect. The classic lineup with Al Anderson on Telecaster and vocals was one of the greatest live bands I've ever seen and heard (twice at The Roxy on Sunset Blvd., in the 90's).

Excellent post @rhg3! I too chose the XLR version of the Rythmik A370 plate amp, gladly forfeiting the high-level hookup provisions in exchange for balanced/XLR low-level ones.

At hi-fi shows Danny Richie uses pairs of the OB/Dipole sub in the front of the room, pairs of F12's in the rear. Killer combo.

@pedroeb (and @perkri): Silly boys, you missed the joke. Don’t you see the ;-) after the line you quote? I am regularly guilty of giving humans too much credit. For all I know, you don’t even understand the use of irony.

Obviously some don’t understand the significant differences between a dipole sub and an omnipole one. Do some reading, and all will become clear. Reading Siegfried Linkwitz will give you a free education.

For starters, a dipole reproduces---say 100Hz---from both the front and rear of the panel, the front and rear waves being in opposite polarity. When the waves wrap around the sides of the panel (yes, very low frequencies are omnidirectional) the front and rear waves meet, and as they are opposite in polarity their combined outputs create a null on either side of the panel. At low frequencies the polar response of a dipole sub is a figure-of-8, just like that of a dipole loudspeaker. If you don’t think that’s important, Siegfried Linkwitz disagrees with you.

Then there is the fact that a dipole sub doesn’t pressurize the room as does an omnipole; the air on both sides of the dipole is moved from one side of the room to the other, while an omni pumps bass waves into the room from inside the enclosure (a virtual room within a room). Sounds like an insignificant difference, but it’s not.

Until you have heard a dipole subwoofer, your opinion of them is based on incomplete knowledge and lack of direct empirical experience.

Hi Josh, nice to hear from you here. I decided not to respond to @theaudioamp, as he appears to be one of those who knows just enough to be convinced of his lack of ignorance (for instance, everybody knows a dipole does not "load" the room the way a monopole does). Guess he’s never read the writings of Siefried Linkwitz. THAT is a humbling experience ;-) . One of the geniuses of loudspeaker design.

Regarding the smaller drivers used by Magnepan in their dipole sub: Brian Ding was for quite a while offering a Rythmik Audio sub using 8" woofers, but argued that it’s advantage was not simply in "speed" (lots of people think a smaller woofer automatically results in "faster" performance. Yes, lower driver moving mass can produce faster "settling time" in a woofer, but moving mass alone is but one of many factors involved in that issue.), but rather in its ability to play higher in frequency (the GRR/Rythmik OB sub plays up to 300Hz). He offered the 8" sub as a "midbass coupler", emphasizing that his 12" and 15" woofers are just as "fast" as are his 8", but with greater maximum SPL output capability.

By the way, the Magnepan dipole sub is named the Ultra Wideband Bass System because its response extends up into not just the midrange, but even into the treble range! The technically informed reader knows the higher in frequency a driver will play, the greater is its ultimate speed capability potential. Wendell argues that the UBSes high frequency extension is another reason (aside from its dipole performance characteristics) for its ability to blend with planar loudspeakers.

8" is certainly a popular size woofer in hybrid loudspeakers (planars with built in subs). Roger Modjeski used an 8" woofer in his Music Reference ESL loudspeaker, as of course does Bruce Thigpen in his Eminent Technology LFT-8b.