Hi Elmuncy, In response to your question, I don't know if you can find an actual green marker that would provide adequate coverage and have the same color value as what I actually use. But, I may be wrong as I am unaware of any type of product like you describe.
The CD Green that I actually use is available from LAT International. You can find LAT in the Audiogon Manufacturers lookup. The actual name of the product is "Green Line". There are several similar products available from other sources that pretty much do the same thing.
It comes in a small bottle and the method of application is a pipe cleaner (believe it or not). I'm sure you can improvise and use any application method that is easy for you. Hope this helps. |
Hey Sean, You are very very close. I am more or less reinforcing an open mind regarding CD tweaks. = D
I am very curious about the Audio Desk... |
Herman, Viggen was right. We want optimum performance, so asking an optimologist would be our best bet : )
Don't worry Viggen, those big medical titles always confuse me too : ) Sean
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If it doesn't cost a lot, I'm willing to keep an open mind. Does the green marker have to be a certain brand, or can I just find one at K-Mart? Does it have to be a certain shade of green? I honestly will give this a try. As for demaging, instead of de-stating, I can't for the life of me see how it could possibly work. The discs cannot be magnetized any more than a record can. Static yes |
It might be better to ask an ophthalmologist. |
Strictly guessing, wouldn't some light polarization on the CD eliminate the need for blocking and absorbing difracted laser reflections? Don't ask me how to apply this. Maybe ask an optimologist. |
Good info Herman and thanks for sharing. I wonder if these "optical enhancing treatments" are actually a "clouding agent" or "coating" as you mentioned ? By that, i'm thinking that it might be possible for them to apply just enough of a "blocking coat" to minimize the less than full reflective energy that the laser would normally see and read. By blocking anything other than full intensity reflections, "laser scatter" and reflections ( which are probably greatly increased by tiny imperfections in the plastic surface ) would be minimized. That is, at least as far as what the laser is seeing and trying to interpret as data. The laser could now read the primary signal with less outside interference / delayed signal interpretation.
Once again, these are strictly "guesses" and not meant to be interpreted as how these treatments work. As Herman mentions, it would be very interesting for someone that has knowledge of laser technology with test equipment perform some tests of this nature to see just exactly is taking place. After all, the more that we know, the better and more usefully that we can apply that technology. Sean
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Sean, I am not a laser engineer so I can't give definitive answers but I do have a bit of laser experience as I make my living repairing medical lasers. I do have few thoughts on the subject.
Some energy is reflected and some not. That is the way the whole scheme works. Areas that reflect enough light are interpreted as one digital state and those that don't are interpreted as the other state.
When I point my red laser pointer at a disc I see that it scatters the light. Depending on the coating or lack of coating on the top of the disc some discs transmit a portion of the light. I can see it through the disc. Those that have a heavier coating of paint seem to block it. I have no way of knowing if they absorb it or reflect it. The pointer is a shorter wavelength than the laser in the CD player (around 650 nm vs 790 nm) but they are close enough to reasonably assume that they would act in a similar fashion. It is possible to coat a surface with materials that will act upon a narrower range of wavelengths than this so it is possible that my assumptions are wrong.
The big question is whether this scattered/reflected light will be picked up by the sensor in the player and cause errors. It seems like it would be very simple to set up test equipment to capture the bit stream from a digital output and see if it changes with various disc treatments. I don't have this type of equipment so I can't do it but it can't be all that difficult for someone who does. It would be interesting to see what the results of such tests were. |
Buscis2: I posted earlier findings about the experiments that i did in another thread. For some reason, i can't find them when doing a search in the Agon archives. It basically details the same experience that i sent you via email.
As to your offer, i already have the potential to perform the same basic tasks that you do during your "digital ritual". I do appreciate your offer, but could save us both time and money by doing the same thing here. As such, i basically have done the same things here and have found that not all of the steps are beneficial as described using my specific equipment.
Herman: I don't think that you are "hijacking" anything. As far as i'm concerned, you are simply doing what these forums are all about i.e. sharing knowledge and comparing notes. I don't think that any of us are against learning something new, especially if it helps us to understand why / how audio reproduction is affected ( for better or worse ).
Having said that, i'm not very knowledgeable about laser technology. If you, or someone else for that matter doesn't mind, can you answer a few questions for us ? These are not trick questions, but that doesn't mean that other questions won't come to mind based on the answers received : )
1) Is the majority of the laser energy reflected back from the disc or is some of it allowed to pass through it to the other side ? I can understand some energy "bending" at the point of impact and "spraying out" the sides or being reflected at right angles of the reflective surface, but my main concern at this point is actual "laser penetration" beyond the disc itself. Do you know if this occurs ?
2) If "laser scatter" ( for lack of not knowing the proper terminology ) is real, what is the best way to minimize the potential for stray light to re-enter the laser ?
3) Is it possible to direct the energy found in "laser scatter" away from the laser or "absorb" said energy via altering the disc itself ?
Bare in mind that i'm not expecting "set in stone" answers, just some idea as to how / why various "tweaks" DO affect the readability of various discs. My thoughts are not so much that they change the sonics of the disc itself, but alter the amount of processing / error correction that is applied to the signal. Does this make sense ? Sean
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Sorry to hijack this thread with a discussion of physics, but I have done a little research into the subject of light absorption and have found the following.
Light will be absorbed by a system when the frequency of the light is in resonance with some natural frequency of that system. When light is refracted, it's speed changes and so does the wavelength, but the frequency does not. Therefore the absorption of a material is independent of the wavelength. |
Buscis2, I use cotten lint free wipes for computors and dry them completely and the cotten wipes leave no lint, but I dont notice the haze right a way! The optrix does improve the sound.
There was another person that posted the same experience on another thread. I have tried everything and the haze doesn't remove easily. I also have the CD magic by compact dynamics and that leaves no residue of any kind. I think the optrix replaced the cd magic, and both seem to do about the same as for the improvements. Happy Listening! |
Hi Peterx, I use paper towels, BUT, I do not rub! I simply pat them dry between two sheets of toweling. I, one time, used a paper towel to apply and polish with the CD diamond.
I should have just used a piece of #220 Wet/Dry sandpaper.
I have found that cotton balls (100% cotton) works like a dream. Very inexpensive, readily available and do a real nice job polishing the surface treatments. |
what do you use to dry cd after washing? thnks. |
Hi Jsawhitlock, Are you washing the CD and thoroughly drying before applying the Optrix? One of the things I had mentioned is starting off with a clean CD. I had noticed that the CD diamond left "streaks" if the CD was not washed before application. |
I use optrix by compact dynamics and the micro smooth from mapeshade but I have noticed that the optrix leaves a haze. I dont notice it right after I use it but after I have played the cd! Has anyone else noticed this wierd thing? I do hear a more quit back ground with smoother highs and a bit cleaner bottom end. Aside from the haze, the results are worth the time and effort. Happy Listening
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Metralla, you're very close; the index of refraction of polycarb layer is 1.55, then the wavelength of the 780 nm laser in the polycarb layer would have to be 500 nm, which is actually the wavelength of cyan (blue-green). Following the theory of color absorption, this means that the color of the edge marker should be red (complement to cyan). |
Geoffkait writes: "Until light in the plastic hits the absorber paint on CD edge it is not red, but another color - orange or yellow(?)."
I believe that the colour is green!
Regards, |
Hey Ed, I'm trying like mad to email you, but I get an "undeliverable" prompt. Has your address changed? Show me the light. peace, warren |
Another wrinkle in the CD edge coloring problem. Here is link to a color wheel:
http://hort.ifas.ufl.edu/TEACH/floral/color.htm
Even if one wishes to believe that red is the color to be absorbed, cyan (blue-green), not green, is the complementary color for red. |
Herman, Hi again, the reflected laser light doesn't have a chance to come out of the plastic medium and be red light again (in air) - it's too late; it has already been absorbed by the color you have (hopefully) painted around the edge of the CD. In other words, the light you are worried about absorbing is the light reflected off the surface of the metal layer that is directed to the edge of the CD. Until light in the plastic hits the absorber paint on CD edge it is not red, but another color - orange or yellow(?). |
There was a good shootout in Audio Musings #14, 2001. They had 7 identical CD-R discs burnt with one classical track and one jazz track. Disc 1: beveled and outer edge blackened with the Audio Desk marker, disc 2: treated with Auric Illuminator and outer edge blackened with that marker, disc 3: beveled and with CD Stoplight applied on the outer edge, disc 4: beveled with no blackening, disc 5: CD Clarity only, disc 6: Digital Juice only, disc 7: control.
They had a panel of 6 listeners and first listened to the control, and then discs 1 through 6.
Three listeners preferred disc 1 with disc 2 as second choice, two preferred disc 2 with disc 1 as second choice, while one listener had no preference.
"The consensus was that it became very difficult to discern subtle differences bewteen one disc and another after only a very short time, and that this was something that should be remembered un any situation where sonic comparisons are being made".
Regards, |
Sean, go off the thread, I will email you my address, send me a disc that you have 2 copies of, and allow me to do this process for you. I will even pay the shipping back to you priority mail.
My only request is that you approach this with an open mind, no pre-conceived notions, and you post your honest impressions back on this thread. I will even replace the disc with a new one if you feel the sound has been degraded. Fair enough?
Batter up! |
First of all, speaking from a purely technical point of view, you did nothing to dispel any myths about digital. You simply gave us your list of what you think works and why you think it works. I just wanted to clarify that the contents of your post are based purely on personal beliefs / your personal experiences and would not "dispel" or "prove" anything to anyone that came to this forum looking for "accurate techical information". The fact that i have very similar beliefs / methods of use should confirm that i did not mean this as an "attack" from a "naysayer".
As your processes go, i clean every disc that i purchase with warm water and Palmolive dish soap. I got into this habit with used discs and it has carried over to new discs. I have had this procedure make the difference between playing and not playing, simply due to removing dirt / smudged finger prints, food particles on used discs. As such, i don't bother looking at them when i bring them home, i just clean them all. This also de-stat's them at the same time if you plan on playing them right away.
I also have and use an Audio Desk Systeme "disc cutter". Should any of you want to compare the effects of this device and have a few duplicate discs, you are welcome to send me a disc or two and i'll cut them and send them back. You are responsible for shipping costs both ways though. The same thing goes for cable burning, so you can kill two birds with one stone if you send both at the same time.
As far as markering CD's goes, i do not do this nor will i ever. I have conducted a few tests doing this and the results were in favor of NOT "greening" or "blacking" discs. Read errors were increased, error correction was increased, discs that were partially readable were no longer readable at all, etc... The results that i obtained were also duplicated by Rodney Gold, moderator of the Digital Asylum over at AA. He performed digital analysis of markered and un-markered discs via links between his all digital Meridian based system and his computer. In every test, markering came back with negative effects on the performance of the system. Since increased error correction can and does alter bit count and over-all performance, the sonics of such a "tweak" will always be subtractive ( losing information ) rather than additive. As a side note, "trimming the edges" ala the Audio Desk Systeme increased read times and reduced error correction according to Rodney's tests.
As far as CD treatments such as Auric, Optrix, etc... i only use them if a disc sounds "bad" to begin with or is damaged. These treatments do increase readability, reduce error correction, etc... They also alter the sonics of the disc. As mentioned, if you have a "brash" sounding disc with a lot of sibilance ala early digital transfers, it can work wonders. Otherwise, my experience is that the leading edge of transients are softened, the music looses some of the drive or "prat", and everything sounds more "mellow". This may be good if you want to go to sleep or have a less than musical digital installation, but i find it a detraction and use it only as needed.
As far as the use of a Bedini or Furutech, etc.. type device, i do think that they work, but the results are subtle. If i've just got done washing the disc, i don't bother using any of these. Otherwise, i do use these and the end result is a quieter and cleaner background with reduced "grit" and increased liquidity.
As a side note, i had posted a link to someone that had done analysis of several different "tweaks" for CD's and all of the "CD mats" reduced the performance of the machine in terms of reduced readability, increased error correction, etc...
I've seen other reports where readability / error correction tests were performed using those "cd rings" that attach to the outer edge of discs. All of these reduced readability, increased error correction and threw the disc out of balance, increasing wear on the motors.
As such, i would suggest performing your own "digital tweaks" and judge for yourself what works and what doesn't. Just make sure that you use a disc that you are familiar with, but aren't too worried about trashing if something goes "wrong".
For the record, Auric Illuminator was able to "reverse" the effects of markering in one test that i did. While the disc had "hops, skips & jumps" in in prior to markering, adding the marker made the disc completely unreadable. Once i applied Auric Illuminator, the disc played like it was brand new with NO problems whatsoever. As a side effect though, the sonics were altered but having a disc that plays with a "softer" presentation is better than having a disc that won't play at all. Sean
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Ahhh, I love you guys like brothers and this some great stuff, but, bottom line, are we in agreement that "Green" would be the color to use to ABSORB stray 790 NM laser light?
If not, I promise, I will hang my head in shame for having put up with all of these good sounding CDs for so long. |
HI Buscis, I don't disagree with the results you claim as I have no first hand knowledge, but again it is a matter of terminology. If you shine a pure blue light onto a yellow surface the surface will appear to be black because it does not reflect any of the blue light. There is no cancellation, the blue light is simply not reflected so there is nothing to see.
To Geoff, yes it is infrared but 790 nm is barely outside the visible spectrum so it too will be absorbed by most green surfaces. As to being downshifted, in most cases, a laser entering a material will exit that material at the same wavelength. If it slows down as it enters the medium, it speeds up as it exits. There are a few materials that re-radiate laser energy at harmonics of the incident beam such as KTP crystals that convert a 1064 nm Nd yag laser to 532 nm, but light entering a compact disc comes out the other side at the same wavelength.
I offer this not in the spirit of disagreement, but in the spirit of attempting to clarify. |
Megasm, sometimes, even golden rules need to be broken. Fortunately, I have no CDs for sale as once I buy them, they become part of the "family".
I also have tried the Marigo Crossbow with excellent results. The only problem I have had with the Marigo is that some transports don't function properly with the Marigo insatalled.
Although, I find it to be extremely effective with DVDs.
And Yes, it is my understanding that the Furutech is actually more effective than the Bedini by virtue of design.
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I love to tweak but cannot perform the CD edge bevel because it breaks the golden rule of tweaking:
NEVER APPLY A TWEAK WHICH CANNOT BE REMOVED
Also you will have problems trying to sell Cds that have been edge beveled.
That said I use similar tweaks, 3 total, which individually would be hard to detect but all three combined make a noticeable improvement. I have several duplicate Cds that I use just to verify stock CD vs tweaked CD. Here are three steps I follow in order of most effective:
1)Auric Illuminator - I only apply to playing surface and only blacken outer CD edge (these steps can be removed)
2)Marigo Crossbow Mat - For longest time I really was not sold on CD matts, this one is the best by far I have tried and after careful evalution it works for me.
(The combination of Crossbow matt and Auric Illuminator work great together since matt blackens/covers entire top CD surface, reduces static etc.)
3)Demag of CD (I only have Bedini ultra II but I am sure Furutech would be even better)(sometimes I get lazy and skip this step)
If I use all three tweaks I will hear noticeable improvement of tweaked CD vs stock CD |
Sutts, that sounds highly unusual, considering the first track is actually at the innermost portion of the CD. I may be able to understand if it was actually the last track and that the information was recorded that far out into the CD diameter.
I have never experienced anything like that nor have several other individuals I know that use the Audiodesk. |
Thank you Herman. In terms of terminology, you are right, I am wrong, and I stand corrected. And for clarification purposes, allow me to transcribe the manufacturers explanation;
"We have found that the effectiveness of the treatment is related not to the actual material of the dye or ink, but rather, to it's surface texture and to how closely the wave length of the Green is to the complement wave length of the 790 NM laser beam. A simple example is the relationship of a Blue wave length that is the exact complement to a wave length of Yellow. The Blue and Yellow will cancel each other out and what remains is Black. Black is the absence of color". |
Herman, Hi - the typical CD player laser light is infra-red, i.e. not in visible spectrum. Also, the light is not red or even infra-red while inside the plastic as wavelength is downshifted due to refraction...if you subscribe to theory of color absorption you will need the opposite color of laser light in the plastic. |
TO HELL WITH THE NAYSAYERS ALBERT. TO HELL WITH THEM I SAY!
You know Albert? It's gonna be kind of tough for me to try to accurately discern what each actual process provides in terms of benefits, but, let me give it a whirl with the most obvious results.
Cleaning: I have never heard an audible difference with just cleaning alone although, it seems better starting with a clean CD in terms of green coating adhesion, and is easier applying the cd diamond.
Cutting: Tighter bass with more extension at the lower frequencies, slightly opens up the soundstage.
Greening: That seems to be the biggie. Much more space between instruments, quieter background.
Polishing: Reveals a higher level of detail, removes some of the "hi-fi" sound. Music tends to have a more "natural sound". Instruments tend to sound more like instruments and less like recorded instruments.
Demag: Removes any "haze", provides a much blacker background. Lowers the noise floor to reveal the most gentle musical nuances and most minute detail. The most immediate effect is the absolutely dead quiet background which is immediately noticable within the first 10-15 seconds of playback.
Just like with our turntables Albert, the effects of proper VTA, cartridge alignment, tracking force and anti-skate provide the cumulative results.
And in terms of naysayers, I have a response to them in a preemptive fashion. Engage your brain BEFORE putting your mouth in drive. |
Buscis- I tried the CD Lathe from a local dealer (he treated one disc as a test), and I believe I could detect an improvement, HOWEVER, here's the problem:
that disc now has BIG problems being tracked properly (especially track #1) on my transport, which has NO problems tracking ay other discs. Hmmmm..... I was THIS close to buying the lathe, but now I'm not so sure... |
I may be able to shed a little "light " on this.
"I still, to this day, have not been able to figure out why Green is the color of choice although, I have been told that it is simply the values of each of these colors (Red laser light and Green) that work together in unison to "neutralize" the light."
The correct term is absorb, not neutralize. A green marker is green because it reflects green and absorbs other colors such as red. Since red and green are opposites on the color wheel, green is especially good at absorbing the red. Black should also work because it absorbs all colors. If you used a red marker it would reflect red, exactly the opposite of what you want. |
Buscis2; well stated case, and I agree w/ the above posts too. My experience has been like yours, although I primarily use the Auric Illuminator kit. It certainly does make an audible and worthwhile difference to me, ie music of treated CDs becomes smoother with greater clarity, and a bit tighter bass, and I/ve tried treated vs untreated discs too. I haven't tried edge beveling yet though. Optrix treatment seems primarily to add smoothness and refinement to CDs. Cheers. Craig |
The small blue rings from Compact Dynamics, makers of Optrix, works well to reduce slipping at the CD/spindle interface; Vivid has replaced Auric Illuminator in my procedure; I also prefer to use Mapleshade Mikrosmooth as first step & like their ionizer gun in addition to Radio Shellac bulk tape eraser. 4 one-inch long equally spaced purple stripes with Staedler Violet pen, around edge, is also quite interesting. |
I don't see anything wrong with your lengthy process if it makes the music better.
I listen primarily to LP, washing my records with a VPI 17F and then preserving them with Last. There is no doubt AT ALL that this improves my softwares performance. I see little difference in our efforts, except you choose to labor on CD format and I on LP.
For my silver discs, I've tried the green edge treatment and various cleaners with audible improvement. Although I am out of the CD Stoplight, I still clean every CD and DVD with Walkers "Vivid" and Record Research's "Shine-Ola."
There is NO question that these improve performance. So I am not surprised that going further, such as your edge beveling technique and de magging might improve still further. If you could explain the benefits, I for one would like to read the results of your efforts.
Please hurry though, before the naysayers chime in, filling this thread with their opinion as to how it cannot work. |
I have compared (same titles) two cds. One treated exactly as Ed, describes. The other, right out of the box. The differences are, quite, dramatic. It's, a (major) tad labor intensive for me to go through the whole rigamaro that Ed does, but I do use a cleaner to remove the mold coating and then the CD diamond treatment. I have bought both of these items from Lat International. I have been very happy, though I still have several hundred cds to go. Nice post Ed. peace, warren |
