I've had similar issues with my Zyx UNIverse - in fact two of these cartridges. Long story short - I purchased a used UNIverse which sounded great but had tracking issues. Happened with 3 different arms (2 SME V's and a Graham 2.2). Loved the sound so much (other than the occsional mistracking) and was concerned that perhaps I was sold a defective cartridge so I bit the bullet and traded it in towards a new one (Mehran had a great special going on and gave me a reasonable trade-in). The new one does the same thing - at least I know that I have a new perfectly functional one though! I've logged approx 100 hours or so on the new one and same tracking issues - has been tried with the SME V on both an Avid Volvere and an Oracle Delphi V.
In short, the cartridge tracks the first track on the HiFi News test LP but distorts on the second at 2g tracking force. Increasing VTF doesn't seem to improve it. I basically just use this second track to try to adjust the antiskating and leave it at that. I do occasionally hear mistracking towards the end of challenging LPs. Alignment seems to be perfect (as verified by MintLP protractor). I've come to the conclusion that these high end LOMC just aren't great trackers like some of the MMs (particularly Shures, of course) but due to the absolutely spectacular sound the UNIverse gives me I put up with the occasional mistracking. I have never heard a cartridge with the "you are there" factor that this one has. |
Firstly Stefanoo, ZYX Cartidges do have a lenghty break in time. I suspect the 4D to be no different than the Airy 3, Universe-Atmos in this regard. How many hours now you figure you've logged?
The Shure VTF Gauge works, but I always questioned mine. An error of .2g will make audible differences, and differences in regards to tracking when the Cartridge is new.
And another thought I had, is the VPI is capable of using a damping fluid in the trough. Maybe try experimenting with fluid damping? Keep in mind, the fine balance of over applying damping fluids, where one drop makes all the difference. More fluid is sometimes not better. Mark |
Hi-FiNews Analogue Test LP |
Hi Stefanoo, What test LP are you refering to with the tracking test?
Bob |
Hi,
thank you Doug and Srwooten.
- I know, regulating just by moving counterweight is very tricky and affects azimuth too, I will try your method.
- When I set the weight I am pointing at "time two" 's scale.
- Sometimes I brush after magic eraser some other times I forget. I am trying to become more consistent; nevertheless, I always check the diamond with a 10X magnifier after I am done playing one side or so and it looks really shiny and sharp.
Yesterday I found out an interesting thing I want to share.
During these 10 hours or so of listening, I have noticed a little distortion sometime on the right ch with some records.
So I have checked and re-checked the alignment, the azimuth, VTA and VTF several times and found them to be all good.
So finally yesterday I put the test record on and scoped the output.
I have incredibly found that the system was unable to even track the first tracking ability's track (12dB) so I was kinda of desperate.
I started to tweak the wire, twisting and untwisting it and after many attempts I have gotten the 12dB right.
Nevertheless I was unable to make the following tracks work.
SO I decided to just give it a shot and listen to it.
Difference was huge and distortion that was heard before was gone.
aside not:
my old rega 300 and denon 103 were able to pass all the 12dB 14dB 16dB and almost the torture track (18dB)
Now my question is:
why wouldn't a VPI and ZYX 4D even try to pass at least the 14dB tack?
I mean just by regulating the tonearm to make it track the 12dB made a huge difference I cannot imagine to make it track the following tracks. |
Stefanoo-
If your VTA is too low (the arm is too low in the back) this will decrease the amount of VTF also. If you change the VTA make sure you re-check your VTF.
You mention you use the Shure scale. Are you using the correct line on the scale? This would be the line with the arrow pointing to it that says "times two". So when you put the stylus in that "times two" groove and you set the weight to 1 gram and the scale balances the VTF is 2 grams.
I recommend going to Amazon and getting a resonably priced digital scale. This is one place where it is good to mix a little digital in with your analog! ;-)
PS-Make sure you use a brush or something on you stylus after you use the Magic Eraser. |
Stephanoo,
If balancing your cartridge on this tonearm is easier without the screw, there's still an easy way to fine-tune VTF WITHOUT moving the counterweight (which is very touchy and affects azimuth, as you know).
Get some O-rings sized to fit snug on the end stub. Slide 1 or more on behind the counterweight. This will make very small reductions to VTF but you can leave the counterweight alone.
You're making great progress,
Doug |
just a quick note.
I hope it will help people who will have the same problem I had.
The solution is to take the screw for fine adjustments off the counterweight's stub.
That way the counterweight will be a little bit away from the unipivot.
Now I have set the tracking force up to 2gr and I can go much higher if I'd like too.
it seems to work much better without the screw and that is what mike told me to do.
I'd suggest to all owners of VPIs to take that screw inside off and regulate the tracking force only relying on the counterweight.
it takes a little longer but it is not impossible, of course :)
Hope this helps.
thank you all for your advice. |
P.S. I am going to buy Magic Eraser this afternoon to keep the stylus cleaned as you suggested many times. |
wow so much useful stuff all at once.
It sounds really complicated to me.
I screwd the the screw all the way in and I moved sligly back the counterweight, but enough to not having it touch the pivot.
I regulated the azimut with the LP test and my Fluke 45 and I had to move the Azimuth Ring a bit, but I guess that it is normal.
The difference on the two channels now is on the order of the 0.01mV which is very good.
With the Azimuth ring a little bit twisted the weight is slighly increased without having touched the counterweight's position...so now it is 1.98gr or something like that (I am going off with the precision of my Sure stylus gauge).
Now I will recheck the alliment with the Mint LP.
The only thing that I find it odd is to find the parallel line or reflection on the Mint.
The cantilever sits a little bit on the inside part of the body and thus I have to incline a bit the magnifier and I am finding some difficolties to line it.
Beside that I will try to contact VPI as soon as they will re-open on the 13th and see what they say.
The only problem I see with the antiskating now is that, if I will insert the mechanical ring, it will considerably push the counterweight back and It will screw up the tracking force.
Nevertheless even at VPI they told me they were running a ZYX cartiridge without AS and they didn't have problem with the cantilever. |
Stefanoo, I would think that you would need a lighter counterweight, not a heavier one. You would need a heavier one if your counterbalance was running off the end of the tonearm and you were tracking 1.95 grams. As I read it, you can't track any lower than 1.95 grams with the counterweight all the way in touching the base. I would think there would be some drag effect from the counterweight rubbing the base as the cartridge tracks. To move the weight out away from the base, you would need a lighter counterweight. Besides, as the cartridge ages, you may want to track lower than 1.95 grams. FWIW, I'm tracking at 2.00 grams.
Doug's comments seem to be pretty accurate. I've never heard a UNIverse-X. I bought the UNIverse-S because I was moving from a Koetsu Rosewood Signature, and I was afraid that moving to a UNIverse-X would be too lean for me. I lived happily with the UNIverse-S for over 4 years.
The dealer I bought the 4D-X from also had a Omega-S. He said the 4D-X sounded better than the Omega-S. After 4 years with the S version, I decided to go ahead and give the X version a try. I'm glad I did. I also have a Dynavector XV-1s that just came in, some day I hope to get around to mounting it and comparing it to the 4D-X. To be honest though, between how good the 4D-X sounds, and how nice the weather has been, I don't know when I'll get around to it.
The Mint LP tractor is a great tool, I wish I had bought it sooner.
Cheers,
John |
How is it possible that a Silver copper coil of a Universe could sound worse than a 4D? Silver has a much higher molecular weight than copper. Higher mass coils make ANY moving coil cartridge sound undynamic, slow, sluggish, less lively. High mass coils defeat the whole purpose of the MC design. That would lead me to think that the 4D might be a better cartridge. A copper coil 4D is a better cartridge than a silver coil UNIverse, but so what? A VW on great tires will beat a Porsche on flat tires around Sebring. That doesn't make VW the better race car. VTF No one can tell you the ideal tracking force for your 4D, because each 4D will be different. This is true of all high end cartridges. You must learn to listen and adjust by what you hear. I can tell you what to listen for. Too light and bass weakens, then you get mistracking. Too heavy and the music loses pace and snap, it sounds sleepy or slow. Find the sweet zone in between. That zone will change as the cartridge ages, so what's right today will not be right next year. What's right on one 4D will not be right on the next 4D. ANTI-SKATING It won't hurt to try antiskating. A new cartridge probably needs some, I never told you or anyone that it wouldn't. All I said is that SOME cartridges need less as they age, and a few eventually need none. But again, each cartride will be a little different. You can measure this with instruments or by listening. What you can't do is take my advice or anyone's advice as gospel, choose some number or amount and forget about it. Vinyl replay is not like that, at least not with this level of gear. VTA (actually SRA) I get best results with ZYX's very close to level. If you've aligned with a Mint then VTA/SRA may be less critical. We adjust for every LP, but most people don't want that much bother. |
Hi Doug,
thank you very much for your reply.
You are the expert on the ZYX cart, so I won't comment on that.
Just an aside though.
The ZYX Universe either copper or silver or gold, even more so, they all cost more than the 4D.
How is it possible that a Silver copper coil of a Universe could sound worse than a 4D?
That would lead me to think that the 4D might be a better cartridge.
But if you say otherwise it must be the way you say since I don't have even a close experience you have on cartirdges.
All I can say is that the 4D is a terrific cartridge.
The only complaint is that, on my system, you tell in 2 seconds whether a record is a good pressing or not..and...if it is not...you take it off in 2 seconds.
I guess it is a positive thing...but I am finding out that the majority of the software I have has to be chucked.
Now for the weight issue:
1) I have tighed the screw in the back and I was able to back up a liiittllee bit the counterweight that now is not touching the unipivot's torret.
2) the weight is set to 1.95gr, and the maximum I can reach by touching the unipivot is, I guess, 2.1; my question is: accordingly to the specs of the manufaturer, the maximum weight is 2.5gr. Isn't good practice to set the weight to the maximum weight specified i.e. 2.5gr? do you have experience with this cart and the ideal tracking force?
3) I am still afraid for the antiskating. I haven't set the external mechanical anti-skating system. You told me on another post it wasn't going to skew the cantilever...I really hope so.
4) for the VTA, is it better to have the pick up perfectly parallel to the patter or a little bit sitting up on the record? |
Stephanoo,
There's no answer to whether it's "better" to have the c/w closer to or farther from the pivot. Each arm/cartridge combination is unique in this respect.
Fortunately any differences from this will be VERY minimal so don't fret about it. Instead, use the following procedure, which will:
a) solve your problem,
b) give you maximum VTF flexibility, and
c) be mechanically and sonically superior.
1. Start with the fine VTF screw all the way IN. It's clearly advantageous to have this screw engaged by as many threads as possible to reduce vibration. You don't want it all the way out, wobbling.
2. With the screw all the way in, set your main c/w so that VTF measures at the UPPER end of the range you think your cartridge prefers. If you think 1.95g is right, set the main c/w so that VTF is slightly higher, like 1.98 or 2.00.
3. Now you can back the screw out *slightly* to get the VTF you want.
Doug
P.S. I agree with using longer/heavier screws and maybe additional nuts, provided you can get them TIGHT. This will increase effective mass, which should benefit this cartridge on this arm.
P.P.S. I've weighed Atmos's with the SB weight. Individual samples vary but 7.95g is typical. The SB-equipped Airy models (Airy 2, Airy 3, UNIverse) weigh about 1g more.
P.P.P.S. As John said, his 4D is outperforming his UNIverse because it has the copper coils, whereas his UNIverse had silver coils. I've had all of these cartridges in my system. A copper coil UNIverse plays rings around a silver coil one, including in the areas of resolution and extension. If he compared his copper coil 4D to a copper coil UNIverse he'd hear something very different.
|
Tom,
I have just checked now and the screw is all the way out toward the outer part of the counterweight's stub, which accordingly to whay you say would suggest that it subtracting (I don't know how much) some weight.
I will screw it all the way in and see what happens. |
Hi John,
thank you for yuour post.
I have listened to the cartirge a couple of hours yesterday and it is so dead neutral that I am very, very impressed.
There are a lot of thread stating that the 4D is the same as Atmos.
I don't know about that, but if it would be so , then, your previous Universe, would definitely have to outperform your 4D.
The tracking is perfect, although I am going to make better regulations today with my Mint LP and the Azimuth with the meter (I did it yesterday but I didn't spend so much time on it).
I will probably attach the little bolts to the longer screws (although the ZYX comes with the Zn's option i.e. litle bolts on the body of the cart) and that should add some little weight to it and maybe I will be able to move the counterweight a little bit back from the unipivot.
But it is still unclear to me: is it better to have the counterweight as close as possible to the center pivot or not?
I will probably look into the heavier counterweight from VPI and now I am going to check the internal screw inside the counterweight's stub for for weight's fine adjustments and see what's the situation. |
It sounds like you are there with the longer screws which weigh more but, if you need more weight, you could try longer screws which would add weight too.
just a thought... |
I would check with VPI to see if they have a different counterweight. I have a Basis 'table/arm, and I had to order a different counterweight for heavier cartridges, like the Dynavector XV-1s, from Basis. Hopefully you get a chance to listen to the 4D at it's best. I, myself, wouldn't feel comfortable attaching a coin to the tonearm.
Currently I'm running a ZYX 4D-X SB2 and I have to say that I am very impressed. I like the 4D-X better than my previous UNIverse-S. The UNIverse had a sweeter midrange, but the 4D has better resolution and extension. Some of this may be due to the silver vs. the copper coils.
Cheers,
John |
I just had this problem with an Ortofon Red in a Scout arm. The permanent solution is to get a different counterweight from VPI. The temporary one, which worked fine for me, was to fix a nickel to the top of the headshell [or where the headshell would be if it were detachable] with a small bit of Blutak. You can now move the counterweight back, I think it sounds better farther back even if you can squeeze out the correct force by having it very close. Not particularly esthetic but sounded good. |
Hi,
yes I am sure I have the SB2 option as I can see the silver base at the top of the cartridge.
I temporarly fixed the issue using the screws supplied by VPI (they came with the TT) that are heavier than the screws they come with the cartridge.
With those screws, pushing the couterweight all the wai in I can measure a tracking force of 1.95gr whch is basically what I wanted to have.
the only thing is that the coutereight is pushed all the wai forward and touches the base of the arm.
I don't know if this might be a problem for the sound or not.
Am I wrong by saying that the closest the counterweight to the pivot of the arm the better it is?
If so, then wound't it be a good thing the fact that I have to push the weight all the way in?
I will check the fine adjustment's screw.
BTW the lifting cue mechanism is released and the arm is freely moving and there is no external antiskating installed. |
Correction to my suggestion about the fine adjustment screw. If it was set all the way down into the armwand, then your VTF would be higher, not lower. So ensure that the opposite is not the case (adjustment screw protruding from the back of the armwand).
Tom |
Are you sure you have the "SB2"? Weigh the cartridge. The standard model, at 4 grams, would be likely to have the problem you are experiencing.
If the cart weighs 7.9 grams as advertised, then the problem must lie elsewhere.
The VPI tonearms have, in addition to the counterweight, a fine weight adjustment screw that is accessed and adjusted with an allen wrench on the back end of the arm. Make sure it's not set all the way down into the armwand.
If it's not that, disconnect your anti-skate device to ensure that it's not causing this problem.
If it's not that, make sure the arm is not contacting the arm lift mechanism at all when you lower the needle to the record surface.
Hope this helps.
Tom |
