Vote for the best speakers in 10K range

Subaruguru, Merci de votre reponse. Je dois ajouter que je n'ai pas entendu Les Parsifals Encores, mais juste Les Parsifals et je ne sais pas quels developpements ils ont fait pour ameliorer le Parsifal. Il faut admettre que les hauts-parleurs aient ete demontre avec les "woofers" emettant le son vers le mur plutot qu'en face de nous, mais apres m'avoir entendu plaindre depuis quelques minutes de la base profonde absente , le vendeur a tourne la boite woofer vers nous. Bien sur, c'etait une enceinte avec un son "tiede", donc, on attendrait qu'il ait porte assez de frequences bases. Mais, ce n'etait que les frequences bases plus profondes qui etaient manquantes. J'ai trouve cette bande de frequences beaucoup trop "tight" ou "supprime". Par exemple, les parsifals n'ont demontre aucune tendance a ebranler la salle sur la deuxieme bande du CD "Surfacing" par Sara McLaughlan. D'autres CD's portant la base profonde nous ont montre la meme chose. Peut-etre que les enceintes se trouvaient trop loin du mur pour produire les fortes bases frequences. Mais, est-ce que vous pensez de pouvoir les utiliser sans un "subwoofer" est d'etre heureux avec la reproduction des frequences bases profondes? Merci.

Apres avoir relu votre reponse, je comprends que vous etes heureux de la base, je crois, sans subwoofer. Regardant mes notes de la demonstration, je n'ai pas ecrit quels equippements etaient utilises pour les demontrer et maintenant, apres longtemps, je ne m'en souvenais pas. La difference entre ma perception et votre experience prouve que les demonstrations au magasin sont beaucoup plus inutiles que les demonstrations chez nous. Il est probable que vous ayez raison et je me sois trompe de la capabilite base profonde des Parsifals a cause d'une mauvaise demonstration.

Hi Telescope, so you took the plunge. Sounds like you made the right decision. Congratulations!

So....Bob,

Are you trying to say you like these beasts? :>)
Great. Just what I need - another Holy Grail to pursue!

Schubertmaniac--- couldn't agree more with you about Maggies/SLs/boxes. I've owned Maggies since mid-'70s----most recently 3.5Rs (which I still have. HP likes 3.5Rs/3.6Rs when combined with a subwoofer, but if you start adding up what it costs to bi-amp, with the extra amps, interconnects, speaker cables, subwoofer, etc., as the monkey said when he peed in the cash register: "This is gonna run into money!" And fast!)----but the SL A-3s (same as M-2s, functionally) I bought about a month ago are in a totally different class. Transparency/natural timbre are strong points, AND they've got as much accurate bass as I could ever hope for. (Caveat--I listen to classical music almost exclusively----YMMV.) I've gotta say, however, that the Maggies perhaps do image a bit better, although I'm still experimenting with speaker placement.(Unfortunately, at least IMHO, there are more compromises in speakers than in any other component, except perhaps phono cartridges, the other end of the chain. Maybe in the future there will be one speaker that does it all, but that doesn't seem to be the case at the moment.) Can't speak for the Maggie 20s----I've never heard them----but I'm extremely happy with SLs. I've heard there is a long waiting list for any of the Maggies (about the same for SLs, also!).

As for box speakers, there are without doubt some excellent ones---- I'll be the last to criticize anyone's choice---- but to be perfectly honest, the only ones I've "listened to" in some 25 years were a pair of Revels in a salon when auditioning a Sony 9000ES recently. The only demo classical SACD they had was of Glenn Gould, so I couldn't tell much about image/soundstage, etc. I guess Maggies and SLs have simply convinced me I'm a planar nut.

BTW----in my limited experience, some SL dealers will knock a bit off the retail price----seems to be discretionary. Also, beware of some of the used SLs on various classifieds. From what I've heard/read, Dr. West, the SL designer, is constantly "tweaking", so what seems to be a bargain may be otherwise, depending on year of manufacture, fixes/upgrades that have been done, etc. There have been many improvements over the years. Get serial numbers, contact the factory, and they can tell you about the history as they know it.
Jim

914nut - here are a few things you may or may not have tried that should improve the imaging of your Sound Labs:

Try them on cones. I use Walker Valid Points, stuck in their little lead hockey pucks. I have a customer who uses Blue Diamond Racing cones (the "detail" ones) on a hard tile floor with good results. When you are standing the speakers back up, having screwed on the cones, take care not to put all the weight on a single cone. Rotate the speakers to one side a bit as you stand them up so the weight is distributed.

Address the first sidewall and "frontwall" reflections. I use fake ficus trees at the first reflection points to either side of the speakers, as well as behind (and a bit to the inside of) the speakers. If your room is bright and underdamped, consider a date with Sallie.

Put a pointy piece of tape on the floor exactly in front of your listening position (pointy so you can get an exact measurement), and using a tape measure make sure you have both speakers exactly the same distance from the point. You may end up making small, 1/16th inch adjustments by ear. Roger Waters' "Amused to Death" is useful for getting this part right.

Make sure you have both speakers toed in the exact same amount. I suggest using a flashlight held to your forehead, and adjust the panels until you see exactly the same reflection in each.

If you have done everything very meticulously and the center vocalist is still a bit off-center, try gingerly using the bias controls as level controls to dial that vocalist in to dead center.

I find speaker cabling to make a significant difference in the soundstaging as well. You want a very coherent cable, one that minimizes time smear. Since the Sound Labs are inherently very coherent, timing anomalies that go unnoticed on other speakers ought to be addressed. The wide, flat Magnan Signature cables are my personal favorite. Note that David Magnan's reference system is a pair of stacked Original Quads - conceptually rather similar to the Sound Labs.

You might want to get several bags of lead shot and put them on top of the speakers. I put each bag inside two thick, dark socks, (the opening of the inner sock oriented opposite to opening of outer sock). I use number six shot. You might also want to experiment with solid lead blocks on top of the speakers. I think this would work even better.

Someone above was wondering if the Sound Lab dealer in New Orleans offers a discount. My reply:

"MUUAAAH HA HA HA HA!"

Sorry, I've been wanting to do that for a long time.

My gimmick is, if you travel to New Orleans for an audition, you stay free in a bed & breakfast I manage, and I'll reimburse up to $500 of your airfare with purchase. I offer a modest discount in addition to the airfare thing, but I'm not trying to be the internet discount king. I'm trying to be a real dealer regardless of where my customers live - my shipping crates are available to my customers, for example, and if you have a problem I'll do my best to get it resolved quickly and to your complete satisfaction. Blah, blah.

Although the topic seems to have varied a bit from the question, I will put in my vote for the best speaker in the $10K range... The winner for me is Vienna Acoustics Mahler, hands down the nicest sounding speaker I have heard in it's class.

Niels.

Audiokinesis/914nut:
The reason I recommended those two speaker systems: Sound Lab and Magnepan is because they are nonboxy speakers. I own
Acoustat 2+2s with both ARC and Spectral equipment. So
any pure Electrostatic has to be excellent(faulty logic
I know). The Sound Labs got excellent reviews which I expected. In 1985 when I purchased all my equipment, the
choice narrrowed down to Maggie IIIas or the Acoustat 2+2s.
I chose the Acoustats(the golden ear of the family my wife
preferred the Maggies). I have never looked back since...
well....almost. Since I got on Audiogon this past year,
this forum picqued my interest in new stuff. I auditioned
three speaker systems last weekend. The Avalon Eidolons in an all Spectral setup(2C3D), Martin Logan Prodigy speakers, and Magnepan 3.6s. The winner was clear in about 10 seconds
The Maggies. More transparent, more coherent, more natural
timbre,more dynamic. The Martin Logans took ten seconds
to find out they lacked everything the Maggies had. The
Ediolons had the best soundstage/imaging but lacked the
natural timbre and transparency. On dynamic passages you
knew the music was coming from a box. The Maggies defintely
need power to sound great, the more the better(I would guess 400 watts 4ohms minimum). I will make the assumption that the Sound Labs will sound excellent because it will have many of the characteristics of the Maggies/Accoustats but maybe even better. However, were the three I tested better than the Acoustats, the Maggies for sure, but lots better?? No. The Martin Logans were a very definite NO. The Avalons
were good speakers for a box, but the whole setup was over
70K dollars. So to get reasonable sound from a box you have to spend alot more money than I care. The upshot of this
all: I love electrostats and will keep the pair I have until
they fall apart,ditto the electronics(I didn'hear anything
appreciably better in that regard either).Audiokinesis:
I was only kidding about discounts.

One question: Whatever happened to Jim Strickland the
founder of Acoustat????

The best speakers for 10K that I heard : Martin Logan Prodigy, Audio Physic Avanti III, B&W 802N. If you are in Europe I would add to the list Audio Physic Calderas II they are only here $ 9500. Enjoy it

Degustibus non disputandum