vinyl versus digital redux


Has anyone compared the sound of vinyl with the sound of digital converted from a vinyl intermediary ?

I am referring to 'rips' of vinyl made with high end, high quality vinyl playback systems, with
conversion to high resolution digital.
I find it nearly impossible to distinguish the two results.
The digital rip of a vinyl record sounds identical...or very nearly so...to direct playback of the vinyl.

If one has 'experienced' the foregoing, one might question why digital made without the intermediary of vinyl sounds so different from vinyl.   A detective story ?

We are talking about vinyl made by ADC (analog to digital conversion) of an amplified microphone signal and re-conversion to analog for output to the record cutting lathe, or from analog tape recording of an amplified microphone signal, and then....as above...via ADCl and back to analog for output to the cutting lathe.

Of course vinyl can be and is 'cut' (pressings made from 'stamper' copies the 'master' cut in lacquer) without digital intermediary.  Such practice is apparently uncommon, and ?? identified as such by the 'label' (production)

Has anyone compared vinyl and high resolution digital (downloads) albums offered by the same 'label' of the same performance ?  Granted, digital versus vinyl difference should diminish with higher digital resolution.   Sound waves are sine waves....air waves do not 'travel' in digital bits.    A digital signal cannot be more than an approximation of a sine wave, but a closer approximation as potential digital resolution (equating to bit depth times sampling frequency) increases.

If vinyl and digital well made from vinyl intermediary sound almost identical, and If vinyl and digital not made via vinyl intermediary sound quite different, what is the source of this difference ? 

Could it reside....I'll skip the sound processing stages (including RIAA equalization)...in the electro-mechanical process imparting the signal to the vinyl groove ?

Is there analogy with speaker cone material and the need for a degree of self-damping ?
Were self-damping not to some extent desirable, would not all speaker cones, from tweeter to sub-woofer, be made of materials where stiffness to weight ratio was of sole importance ?

Thanks for any comments.
seventies

Showing 4 responses by williewonka

I’ve also made several digital 16/44 copies of vinyl albums. I keep it simple - each digital copy has two tracks Side A and Side B.
I do no need to have a digital recording of each track

On playback on my audio system I am unable to discern and difference between the the two sources.

My reason for doing this is so I can enjoy the digital version of the album in any other part of the house/garden on a streaming device and NOT have to setup a more elaborate solution.

I use a Behringer UCA222 - comes with Audacity software
https://www.behringer.com/product.html?modelCode=P0A31

But you will need a pre-out (or tape out) on your amp

Regards - Steve
@seventies - what I said was - I cannot tell the difference between the vinyl and the digital AS PLAYED & RECORDED on MY system 

Let's not forget the many nuances of musical reproduction...

From a piece of vinyl.
- the details of the master cutting and subsequent pressing
- the sound of te actual cartridge
- the mounting of the cartridge - impacts sound/tone
- VTA - Toe-up or down, changes the sound to suit a person's hearing
- the cables/connectors involved
- the phono stage

From a digital source file.
- how the data is transferred to the DAC
- the cables used
- the abilities of the DAC
- the abilities of the DAC's analogue stage

Even before you posted - I listened to an album that I have in both formats from the record company - the digital download was 16/44 
- from  a "fidelity" perspective, I could NOT hear any difference.

But that is NOT the case with ALL albums
- e.g. for some reason my Peter Gabriel album, SO, sounds much better on vinyl. Again, the cutting/pressing process may account for this.

Some Albums are exquisitely recorded in analogue and then reproduced in digital
- in this case the vinyl has 100% of the signal
- whereas the digital does not really have 100%
- doesn't it stand to reason the vinyl should sound more "complete"?

The Nyquist Rate, whilst providing significant scientific evidence as to why digital should work, does not really factor in everybody's hearing abilities.

The ear is an extremely sensitive "instrument" and is different, person to person - in some cases NOT so sensitive :-)

Also, don't forget the "romantic" allure of vinyl. The pops and crackles that add to the "charm" of older recordings

AND those readable vinyl covers
- you get great artwork, sometimes words and thoughts of the artist
- you may get them on a CD, but you need  microscope to read them
- not very "appealing".

Also, if you attend a live performance - there is crowd & venue noise, artist/band mistakes and ad-libs
- with vinyl there are the pops and crackles to add "COLOR" 
- with digital there is just "perfect music"
- which actually sounds a bit too clinical for many ears..

When I started in this hobby there was no digital
- when it came out I switched - I liked the cleaner sound
- my vinyl rig was not very good and the CD player was much better than the TT
- then I started to improve the analogue rig

Today - I can listen to either - if not for the pops and crackles, they both [provide about the same level of "fidelity" and enjoyment

My older pressings - going back to around 1954 will always sound better on vinyl - complete with pops and crackles.

The newer albums sound great in digital - better dynamics and imaging

The ones in between? - depends on MY mood and whether there is a a glass of scotch in play :-)

One album I have is Annie Lennox singing some oldies
- it has some pops and crackles and it adds to the charm.
- It definitely would NOT sound as nice in digital
- this is album I recorded WITH pops and crackles, as mentioned above
- sounds great anywhere I play it.

No real answer to your post, but hopefully some insight into the more  "human" side of vinyl

Regards - Steve 






@seventies - WRT...
One method, already mentioned, is to induce a 'label' to digitally transcribe into high resolution digital their vinyl offerings....whether or not the 'offerings' were 'cut' from sound wave to tape to acetate or from sound wave to digital to acetate.
This may be cost-effective for the listener, but can it be profitable for the studio ?
I believe it is profitable - here are a couple of examples that I know of...

Take a look at the Jeton Audiophile Legends albums - on one album I have, they reproduced tracks from Jeton direct to disc masters via a Clearaudio Master Reference turntable.
- I have one album by Acker Bilk on vinyl that was created by playing and recording direct to disk archive copies of tracks, but I am not sure if this is their standard production method

I believe Audiophile Legends markets both vinyl and digital formats, so the digital formats may well offer what you are seeking.

Considering the effort they go to - their albums are reasonably priced

Another company that offers superbly recorded analogue masters is Tacet. They do offer both digital and vinyl formats. They are a "little anal" about the process of recording, most everything they do goes onto analogue tape

Unfortunately on many of the vinyl pressings I own, whilst providing excellent sound quality, they do suffer from "ghosting" - where the groove  following the groove currently being played can be heard due to distortions introduced by the cutting head. This is only an issue where the currently played groove is a quiet passage and the following groove is much louder.

I thought it strange that they went to such lengths during the recording of the music and then did not follow through with the vinyl format by using more space between the grooves on the master.

So in this case - the digital format would actually sound better than the vinyl 

In both cases - the process is very specialized and driven by people with "audiophile tendencies" - but the more mainstream labels these days use a digital masters, so they would see no "value" in such processes. 

Regards - Steve


@seventies - what appears to be something that may be "quite achievable", certainly from a technical perspective
- I think that it would be a considerable undertaking for any record label to setup yet another "stream" of source material to package and store (if on CD), distribute and market.

And that’s before you factor in which sample rates to provide

So what appears to be a relatively simple undertaking, may actually may turn out to be something few labels would even consider.

Generally - Record Exec’s are there to make money - fast!
- and today, spinning of a vinyl stream of business from a digital source is relatively easy

Spinning off a digital source from a vinyl replay would probably be considered as - NOT required, NOT profitable or even sensible, by those same Record Exec’s - just to cater to "a few" audiophiles

Jeton is a very specialized company and provide highly specialized product to a select few - not the mode of operation of your more normal record companies

High-res digital audio, well above 24/192, is readily available from many sites and the trend will continue to even higher rates. But even so, the companies thqt offer high res digital are not so "mainstream" - I'm thinking apple here :-)

I think higher-res digital may probably satisfy the vast majority of audiophiles

I also think for the "kids of today" the more recent "allure of vinyl" has far more to do with it being unique, as opposed to sounding superior
- they just like to have something different to show off to their friends
- they also like those other traits of vinyl, such as the artwork and the sleeve content.
- and - most vinyl today comes with a convenient digital download - best of both worlds

At least - that is my own personal view of this particular line of thought.

Cheers - Steve