seventies Sound waves are sine waves....air waves do not ’travel’ in digital bits. A digital signal cannot be more than an approximation of a sine wave, but a closer approximation as potential digital resolution (equating to bit depth times sampling frequency) increases. This is a widely shared belief but it is a misnomer. Provided the signal is within bandwidth to satisfy Nyquist Theorem, the sine wave can be reproduced exactly. Remember that Nyquist isn’t a theory - it’s a theorem. If you can’t get your head around the math, this guy offers a pretty good visual demonstration. mijostynMy phono stage runs through an ADC into 24/192 digital to digital processor ... Conversion back and forth into and out of 24/192 digital is invisible (inaudible). Like @mijostyn, I can make outstanding quality digital files from LP that I think are indistinguishable from the LP source. It requires good equipment and it’s a tedious process, but it’s do-able. |
mijostynVinyl adds euphoric distortions that digital conversion has no problem capturing. Wow, if you’re experiencing euphoric distortion, you must be smoking something. Perhaps you mean euphonic. No matter. Distortion has nothing inherently to do with it. There are many explanations for why an LP might sound better than its digital equivalent (or vice versa), including different mastering. The simple answer is that when the LP sounds better, it can be faithfully transferred to digital. |
seventiesDo
you agree that the audio result of initial digital recording, tape
recording, and 'direct to disc' analog recording (via vinyl lathe
cutting or lacquer to 'stamper' to vinyl) is distinct (and to many
'euphonic') so long as the music is played back from vinyl, whether or
not that analog playback signal is converted to hi resolution digital ? No, I don't. The very best quality LP playback is very, very close to the best quality digital playback.
Of course, some people like LP distortion and will go out of their way to maximize it. They'll use warm-sounding phono cartridges, tube phono sections with gobs of distortion and their alignment geometry will often be out of spec. But they like the euphonic result, which is fine. But that's not my approach - I want sound as close to neutral as I can get, regardless of the source. I want whatever distortion is inherent to be as little as possible.
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mijostynThank you cleeds. But euphonic would mean "true sound" which it is not. The definition of euphonic is "pleasing to the ear" not "true sound." In fact, euphonic reflects a deviation from accuracy. I’m not sure why you seek to apply your own, conflicting definition to such a simple word. There are a host of distortions that are inherent in the analog process that are not present in digital. Of course. That’s why digital was invented. It’s also true that many of those inherent analog distortions can be reduced to levels that can be below audibility, just as the potentially superior specs of digital don’t always yield a better sounding result. This is easy to demonstrate playing exactly the same master of Dylan’s Desire in 24/192 digital download and 45 rpm analog at the same time, in sync so you can switch back and forth between the two. The digital has a wider dynamic range as you would expect and is more detailed. You can hear this particularly in the violin. In spite of this every last person I have done this for prefers the vinyl. If the digital has a wider dynamic range than the LP, then it’s most likely the two are not cut from the same exact master. The digital recording may have wider DR, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’s the higher quality transfer, especially if it was made from an old master and you’re comparing it to something like an original pressing or early Mo-Fi release. So this test of yours proves nothing by itself. In any event, I’ve done similar comparisons with similar results, but also find that sometimes the digital version sounds better. And that’s the point: Sometimes, the best available version of a recording is on LP, and sometimes it’s on digital. The Mercury Living Presence LPs are good examples of this - the best version is always one of the early LPs. Although a lot of effort went in to the digital transfers, the original master tapes have aged to the point that they just can’t compete with the sonics of the LPs. And returning to the thread topic - it is possible to make digital transfers of those old Mercury LPs that are indistinguishable from the LP itself. On this, @mijostyn, we seem to agree. |
seventies I’m not sure we’re on different pages ... I am talking about a sonic characteristic, a sonic ’signature’ if you wish, which is achieved only through the intermediary of vinyl. That’s where we disagree. I don’t think vinyl has any such inherent magic, special sonic signature. |
seventies Increased measurable distortion and decreased dynamic range inherent in vinyl playback are, I believe, hard to dispute. The potential dynamic range of the LP format exceeds that which most music requires. That was true even before the loudness wars, which have only further reduced dynamic range. If you have any doubts about that, check the dynamic range database.The distortions that are inherent in LP playback can often be reduced to levels that are essentially inaudible, and that’s why sometimes the best version of a particular recording is the one from LP. At their very best, the results from LP and digital are very, very close. So your wish to obtain the quality of "vinyl playback" without using a turntable doesn’t really make any sense. As I mentioned previously, some people enjoy the warm, euphonic, tubey distortion they can get by using sonically colored turntables, pickup arms, cartridges and phono sections. Perhaps that’s the sound you’d like to achieve using only digital playback. |
mijostynThere is more to vinyl than just the sound. There is the collection and handling of records. There is no way to duplicate this digitally even if you can duplicate the sound digitally. Those of you who do not think you can have obviously not tried it. Don’t believe me. Michael Fremer has commented on this subject numerous times and uses the process for demonstration all the time. Some will disagree, but not me. It is incredible how digital can capture the sound of an LP, especially if you’re not confined to 16/44.1 Personally, I do not record my records to the hard drive. It takes way to much time and effort. I’m just fine with playing my records the old fashioned way. Same here - it’s tedious process to dub an LP to digital. I have done it with just a handful of exceptional or rare recordings that I also wanted to be able to have in a digital playlist but otherwise, when I want to play an LP, I just play an LP. Buy the way Cleeds, all vinyl playback systems are sonically colored and euphORic. Reality is sometimes a hard pill tp swallow. I am sorry if reality is so difficult for you to accept that you seek relief through euphoria. I hope it is not drug-induced, because that’s a slippery slope. Here is the definition of euphoria: yoo-fawr-ee-uh, -fohr- noun 1. A state of intense happiness and self-confidence: She was flooded with euphoria as she went to the podium to receive her Student Research Award.Psychology. 2. a feeling of happiness, confidence, or well-being sometimes exaggerated in pathological states as mania.
(Obviously, your inanimate turntable cannot have, "A state of intense happiness and self-confidence." )
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seventies I raise this issue because of disappointment
with older albums re-released as 'high density tape transfers (HDTT's)' I've never heard of HDTT. Will you please explain what it means?
In both instances the high
frequencies are to my ear so compromised as to suspect misleading
commercialization... What is "misleading commercialization"?
To what extent is that information...particularly high
frequency information....lost with time even if tape is of high quality
and properly stored ? There are too many variables to answer this definitively. It really depends on the tape formulation.
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bluemoodriverWell this seems to make sense, but am I oversimplifying?When the artist’s work is prepared for distribution, a vinyl pressing is made and digital streaming files are prepared. Yes, you have already substantially oversimplified. There are many steps involved in "making a vinyl pressing." The digital streaming files will be identical to the digital mix prepared for distribution. Not necessarily. CD is limited to 16/44.1, but streaming from a source such as Qobuz can be in hi-res. Some listeners really like the changes to the original sound that cutting the spiral groove introduces. Again, you have substantially oversimplified. It is possible to make an LP that is very, very close to the master tape. That’s why test pressings are part of making an LP. Digiphiles often chime in here with claims that digital has better s/n and dynamic range than LP can ever have, which is true. But that advantage is often way in excess of the what the music actually requires. That’s a big part of why an LP can sound so close to the master tape. |
orpheus10In the beginning, hardware was made available to down-load LP’s to hard drive ... Strictly speaking, you can’t "download" an LP to a hard drive. "Downloads" are for digital files and can be transferred at high speed. To get a digital file from an LP, the disc has to be played in real time, then run through an ADC on its way to a computer. Eventually new computer cards came on line, and Benchmark made a new analog to digital converter (which they no longer make), also the audiophile computer cards are no longer available. There are still plenty of high quality digital audio cards for computers, such as the Asus that records up to 24/192. Another option is an outboard ADC - of which there are many such as the Amari - or something like the M2Tech Joplin, which is an ADC that will apply RIAA eq in the digital domain. And of course there are still standalone digital recorders that include an ADC, such as the Denon DN-900R. They said it couldn’t be done (we believers did it). They didn’t believe us, now it can’t be done because what’s needed to do it is no longer available due to lack of demand. Nah, there’s still lotsa gear that can be used to digitize an LP. It’s just that - for the most part - people just don’t want to be bothered. After all, it is a tedious process. But it’s do-able. |
orpheus10Cleeds, first I relax in the recliner that’s in the sweet spot and listen for the needle to drop on the first LP that I’ve programmed on my play-list. Then I began to spiral into the holographic soundscape that’s presented before me ... In regard to the process, it’s no more tedious than playing a record. I think making a high quality digital file from LP is a very tedious process, and that’s why I don’t do it more often. But I can imagine that some people might enjoy the undertaking. |
4trackmind... The characteristic upper bass/lower-mid bloat peakiness OF VINYL sounding like a phase-distorted bathtub affect is the thing I, personally, have never been able to stand about "vinyl sound"... That "characteristic" isn’t inherent to LP playback, although it’s surely common with cheap and/or poorly aligned equipment. The wild-eyed claims of vinyl’s frequency abilities also prey-upon the uninformed (and: always seem to be spoken by snake-oil hucksters selling $20k turntables!) ... Please tell us what $20K turntable you think represents "snake oil." If one is NOT talking about the obsolete tech of quadraphonically-encoded records neccessitatingly played back with a Shibata stylus, then all of vinyl’s far-flung frequency specs are totally irrelevant and a moot point. Vinyl, for one, is THE WORST for Classic Rock in STEREO. Much too hollowed-out. The 1969 Ampex 3 3/4ips reel of Led Zepp II, for example, is the next best vintage source to the Ludwig first pressing(!). Those tapes sound awful. In addition to the limitation imposed by the slow tape speed, those commercial releases were dubbed at high speed, so any high frequencies that might otherwise have survived tape saturation don’t even have a chance. Even a 7.5 ips commercial tape can usually be pretty easily outperformed by a decent LP and turntable. Don’t get me wrong - I like tape. But just as with LP, its performance potential is often not realized. And tape has its inherent challenges - including properly aligning bias to tape when recording, and of course HF saturation, EQ and tape head alignment. |
