Vinyl / High qual analog tape / High-res digital -- One of these is not like the other

mikelavigne

... digital absolutely misses things objectively, and by degrees. and the musical experience equation is much more diminished by what is missing from digital, even the very best digital, compare to anything added to the very best analog.

This could be true, and it’s sometimes how digital sounds to me. So please tell us @mikelavigne : What is digital objectively missing?

mikelavigne

... objectively the things digital misses are the tonal and timbrel completeness of musical parts, the focused dynamic power of the music, and the inner musical pace and flow. the data density of analog is much higher. the continuous-ness and tonal density are better. the ability to separate musical parts and retain air and dynamic shading is better......especially when the music gets very dense and complicated ...

Mike, we’re probably kindred spirits when it comes to this topic but for explaining our preferences. For example, when you say, "objectively the things digital misses ..." what you really mean is, "subjectively, the things digital misses ..."

Right?

If I’m wrong and you can objectively demonstrate this, please elaborate.

This is such a silly conversation to be having in the third millennium, especially given that there are similar threads on Audiogon here, and here, and here, and here, and ...

If you prefer vinyl, then stick with it and enjoy it.

Pardon me, but did we need your permission?

There are reasons why the analog processing that occurs in the vinyl "process" can result in a sound that pleases someone. However, knowledge is good, and if you are set in your ways, you may be preventing the next leap.

The next leap, to what??

Here’s a simple fact: The highest fidelity copy of many recordings can only be had on LP. It may be that digital versions were deliberately squashed in dynamic range to compete in the Loudness War. Or it may be that the master tape has aged so badly that early LP pressings remain truest to the original. Or it may be that something was lost in the digital remastering process.

I find that even streaming services that aim for high SQ (such as Qobuz) sometimes don’t have the best sounding copies. Of course, when Qobuz gets it right, those files can swamp an LP. Sometimes.

The notion that those who prefer LP to digital do so because of inherent distortions in the LP process is also misguided; it’s the logical error of confusing correlation with causation. While it may be true of some listeners, it overlooks those who take satisfaction in reducing those distortions to the lowest possible level.

And there are those here - @mikelavigne is one of them - who insist they are unable to make digital copies that can equal the SQ of the best LPs, and that the two are easily distinguishable. (That hasn’t been my experience, though.)

To be clear, I wouldn’t bother with a turntable and LPs if I were starting in audio today - the expense and inconvenience just wouldn’t be worth it. But I’ve been into audio since the LP era. The suggestion that those of us enjoying LPs may be "preventing the next leap" is just absurd. Many of us have made that "leap" and found the potential of digital is often not realized.

roberttdid

I am not sure why you are taking such an adversarial tone ...

I really didn't intend to sound adversarial but c'mon, you have to admit this is a pretty tired topic.
You and I are probably much more in agreement on these matters than not.

This applies both ways too. There is a lot of blind devotion to Redbook CD capturing all the possible range of human experience.

That is really a good point and I'll take it one step further: If you want access to the highest quality copies of your favorite commercial recordings, you'll need to be able to play multiple formats.

kren0006

@mikelavigne: in your opinion is there value today in SACD versus the highest quality digital streams ...  I am asking because I am contemplating getting an SACD player if there is an improvement to be had in sound quality over digital streaming ...

With all due respect to Mike, that's a decision I think can best be made by you. Why not borrow a player from your dealer and arrive at your own conclusion?

mikelavigne

... does this mean a recording done with 96/24 or 192/24 (or dxd and Quad dsd) is worse than analog? all other things being equal......yes (some would reasonably beg to differ) ...

As you suggest, some would think your claim is debatable, but I think the debate would be purely academic. Here's why:

... the best music well recorded still serves us well......regardless of the format.

Exactly! And for any of the reasons I've previously cited in this thread, the best version of any particular commercial recording could be on CD, or SACD, or LP, or tape, or from a streaming service. There are so many variables.

roberttdid

No offence to Mike, but his room, his equipment, his sound, is still tuned to the sound he prefers, and that may even be a popular preference, but still a preference.

That's true of any audio system. An illusion is the best any system can create, and even the best illusions are imperfect. So it is always about preference.

I find listening to our main system far more pleasing than reference headphones, but when I need to pick out fine details, the reference headphones are my go to, and even those I have a few of and they all sound different.

Same here. At least with headphones, you eliminate any effects that are the result of room acoustics.

mikelavigne

a cassette tape is 1/4" tape, 4 track, and auto reversing, running at 1 and 7/8th ips. ’4-track’ means 4 tracks on a 1/4" tape. those tracks are tiny, and the sound, while nice on a good cassette, is nothing to write home about.

If you're talking about the Phillips Compact Cassette you're mistaken. It uses 1/8-inch tape. And as a rule, the best cassette decks weren't auto reverse - most of the auto-reversing decks couldn't maintain alignment in two directions.

... 1/4", 15 ips tape on a high quality RTR deck is superior to even the very best vinyl, when the source tape for the transfer is pristine, and the transfer is well done. tape is better. vinyl is not equal ...

That's been my experience.