Vinyl Cleaning Fluid for VPI RCM

Well said, Dan_ed.

I guess that a google search now equals "research" of a product. In my google search, I found the following results for trisodium EDTA ...

1)Trisodium EDTA: Powdered sodium salt. Used as a chelating agent

2)Trisodium EDTA (Universal Preserv-A-Chem)

And, Trisodium EDTA is used as an oral chelator/intestinal wall cleanser as found at this link http://www.branddiscountvitamins.com/colozone.htm I've taken a similar product to chelate the plaque on my arterial walls after too many cheeseburgers. This site claims that it is a colon cleanser, too, and helps remove undigested material and fecal matter deep in your bowels.

So, it appears that trisodium EDTA is used both as a preservative (as stated at the Musical Surroundings website) and as a chelator to remove toxins from your body.

Rackdoctor: Maybe you should drink RRL fluid, rather than shave with it, as it will displace some of the undigested material deep in your bowels? Just a thought. :)

They use trisodium EDTA to help reduce toxins in the body. Must be an effective cleanser? Hmmm.

Nice try,

Jack

EDTA's chemical name is ethylenediaminetetraacetic acid. Dow Chemical's brand name is Versene; there are a handful of other manufacturers. EDTA and its'salts (Disodium and Trisodium EDTA) are used extensively in the personal care, food, and water treatment industries. It's primary functions are that of preservation and chelation. Preservatives and chelating agents are chosen primarily on the ph range in which they function. For example carbonated beverages (check your can of Coke or Pepsi), because of their low ph, are preserved almost exclusively with sodium benzoate which is fucnctional only up to a ph of 4. Foods and personal care products with higher ph's use a variety of other chemical including potassium sorbate, EDTA, nitrates, propionates, etc.
EDTA is harmless and effective.

As you can see in my first post. I said that I heard a negative sonic difference using the RRL.I also mentioned that it contained a chemical that is found in hand lotion. I did not not say if that is right or wrong or a good or bad thing.I just thought that it was interesting.4yanx, challenged my statement as false and I backed up the fact that it contains that chemical.It comes down to this-the RRL did'nt work for me. The Torumat did. End of story.I am not trying to build a market for the Torumat and I did not "trash" the competion.I just stated two things-my experience with the RRL and a fact about one of the ingredients.You can take it anyway you want it.

OK, you win Rack, one of the ingredients found in the RRL fluids is one found in some personal care products. As pointed out by a few others since, it is also used in a variety of other applications for the same purpose. I had not seen the ingredient listed for RRL, as I had not read the product info on the Musical Surroundings site..which also says, among other things...

"Trisodium EDTA is added to the surfactant as a preservative, greatly reducing bacterial growth with no sonic signature. Carboglycinates are added as a vinyl lubricant, again chosen for its lack of sonic signature. Both compounds are vinyl and environmentally friendly."

What I find "interesting" is that RRL discloses ANY of its ingredients. Try asking the makers of nearly any commerically available fluids for any of their ingredients and see what you come up with. I spoke with Brian Weitzle on the phone a couple of times when I was researching fluids some time ago. Bottom line is that he spent a couple of years and several thousand dollars in research and development before ever making the stuff available. The very fact that Trisodium EDTA is mentioned specifically in product literature, in combination with the reports of countless happy users, leads me to believe that your mention of it as "interesting" because it is used on "women's hand lotion" is a red herring, at best, and misleading, as well.

If the product does not work for you, I doubt anyone has a problem with that, per se. I know that I really don't care what anyone else uses, as long as they're happy. And just as you give your opinion, don't be surprised if others note their opinion as opposite from yours.

However, your allusions in making the references you have are fairly plain to me, and to others who have posted since.

You can take it anyway you want it.

It seems some have done just that.

Wash with distilled or HPLC water and then vacuum at the last step regardless of what cleaning fluid you use.

Why I Am Cautious About Using Record Cleaning Fluids.

Most commercial record cleaning fluids do not reveal their compositions. Why I understand the manufacturer’s reasons, as a consumer I am reluctant to use these fluids on my LPs because of their unknown effect on vinyl, the manufacturer’s claims and other audiophiles’ testimony notwithstanding. This is a little off the topic and I hope that Garakawa forgives me for this intrusion.

My cautious attitude is rooted in my work in Interfacial Phenomena better known as Surface Chemistry. Most fluids (not just alcohols) applied on the vinyl surface will leave behind a thin film of only a few molecules thick. This physically adsorbed film (by electrostatic attraction or hydrogen binding) may or may not be easily removable unless we know its composition. Finally, as some have already stated, highly polar solvents such as alcohols or other organic solvent may also dissolve (leach out) the plasticizer (probably a phthalate compound) in the vinyl which may render the vinyl brittle in the long run.

How Contaminants Are Removed From Vinyl Surface

The vinyl surface may contain a variety of undesirable contaminants: mold release, dust, finger prints (oil), cigarette smoke, at other compounds of surprising origins. It takes water and several organic fluids of different polarity to dissolve (solubilize) and displace all of these contaminants. Unfortunately, many polar organic fluids (e.g., strong alcohols) by themselves will definitely harm the vinyl; others may harm the environment (fluoro-, chloro-ethane). One solution—really a compromise—is a mixture of small quantities of one or several polar organic compounds with water, which form what some have called a broad spectrum fluid. Another solution is to use a surface-active agent to reduce the interfacial tension sufficiently 1) to allow the fluid to penetrate into the nooks and crannies where the contaminants reside and 2) to facilitate the removal of contaminants by solubilization and flotation. A third solution is the combination of the previous two.

How Cleaning Fluid Constituents Remain On Vinyl Surface

By their nature, all surface-active agents and organic materials will “adsorb” onto the vinyl surface (or any solid surface for that matter) via either electrostatic attraction and/or hydrogen bonding onto specific sites on the vinyl surface. Thus, a surface-active agent/organic solvent in the cleaning fluid will generally remain adsorbed as a thin molecular film on the vinyl surface even after vacuuming.

If this adsorbed material is a volatile liquid such as IPA—this alcohol is a weak surface-active agent—then it will eventually evaporate off the surface through its vapor pressure, though it may have time to “leach” out some plasticizer. But if this material is a higher molecular-weight (liquid or solid) compound or a detergent—this latter is the best reducer of surface tension—then it will remain molecularly adsorbed on the vinyl surface for a very long time.

I just do not believe that any fluid can have a positive “preservative” effect for vinyl. Vinyl is an extremely inert material that does not need to be preserved. It’s mostly dead already and is not going anywhere. The adsorbed film of “preservative” or lubrication left in the grooves cannot be good for the record in the long run. The electrostatic attraction or hydrogen bonding is not strong enough to survive the stress of the needle against the grooves: the adsorbed film (a few molecules thick) will be quickly torn up and become chemical contaminants in the grooves. The best treatment for vinyl is simply to clean it and leave nothing behind. Note: if memory serves, EDTA is usually used as a chelating agent to prevent solid precipitation (Ca, Mg compounds, etc.) in a complex mixture such as hand lotion, hair shampoo, toothpaste, etc. It may be called a preservative only in this sense; it is not a good biocide or oxygen scavenger.

The Last Cleaning Step

My recommendation is whatever fluid you use, wash the vinyl generously with distilled water and vacuum as the last step to remove the last remnants of the cleaning fluids. I am fortunate that I have access to HPLC grade water (and IPA) with exceedingly low residue—they are called nano-pure solvents—so I know that these solvents will leave virtually no residue. But you can do pretty well with store-bought distilled water. Just make sure it is fresh to minimize the amount of organic materials leached out of the plastic bottles and store it glass bottles if possible.