Verity Audio midrange drivers?

My understanding is that the Leonore uses the same midrange driver as the flagship Lohengrin II. I have not heard the Leonore however.

As I recall, Verity uses the same midrange in the Fidelio Encore (discontinued), Leonore, Parsifal Ovation, Sarastro, and Lohengrin II. The Finn uses a different midrange than the one used by the above, but Verity claims the Finn's midrange as well as its tweeter are both "improved" compared to the same drivers in the Taminos (discontinued). And those drivers in the Taminos are awfully good!

I have not heard the Rienzi and know nothing about its midrange driver. But based on my experience with other Verity speakers, the drivers in the Rienzi will excel in sonic accuracy.

I emailed Verity Audio and they provided the following information about drivers, noting that all drivers were custom designed:

Finn - all drivers sourced from SB Acoustics.

Rienzi - midrange from SEAS in Norway, tweeter and woofer from Scan Speak.

Leonore - tweeter from SB Acoustics, midrange from Skaaning in Denmark, and woofers from SEAS in Norway.

SB Acoustic drivers appear to be Scandinavian designs that are maunufactured in Indonesia. SEAS drivers are all made in Norway, and I think that all Scan Speak drivers are still made in Denmark.

To my uneducated eye, it looks like the Rienzi and Leonore have better midrange drivers than the Finn. Given the different price-points of these speakers, this should not be a surprise.

Any thoughts?

Skaaning, argueably, build some of the finest midrange/midbass drivers in the industry.

If midrange is important to you, I would look at the Leonore on up - not to say the others would not have great midrange, but the Skaaning driver would be at the top of my priorities list.

good luck!

I agree with Buff. Skaaning are in another league compared to the others. 2 inch voice coils and large magnets with decent Xmax - they should sound very clean with low distortion compared to almost everything else on the market.

Thank-you for the insights regarding Skaaning.

The Rienzi is probably as high as I can go pricewise, but at least the drivers are all Scandinavian made.

The Leonore looks like a great speaker, but should I not be a little concerened about the Scandinavian designed tweeter made in Indonesia?

Regards,

Mark

I really wouldn't get too caught up in drives. I've heard some of the best drives made sound like crap in speakers. Verity makes the best crossovers in the world IMO to me that's more important then drivers. Plus they change the drives when they get them. I would be much more worried about cabinet and crossovers then drivers.

BTW I own the Sarastro's.

I would agree with Mtdking, let Verity do the job of integrating units, and pick your type speaker which will fit your budget and room size.
btw I read about superb match with the new ARC integrated at recent show.
Verity equals long term satisfaction, I suggest put your efforts in a great matching amplifier and do some room acoustics and enlist the Verity club.
keep em spinning.

Thanks for your advice.

Though I have been able to audition the Finn, it is not possible to audition either the Rienzi or the Leonore in my city.

The Rienzi best fits my budget, but I will have to buy them sight unseen...

Given that I would like to support Canadian audio manufacturers, I am considering Simaudio Moon Evolution Series electronics (i-7 or 700i integrated, or P-7 + W-7, SuperNova or 750D CD players). They should work well with Verity Audio speakers.

It is possible to assemble The Great Canadian Audio System!

Regards,

Mark

Why not buy a used Fidelio Encore instead of the Rienzi? I've been listening to Verity for years and find them to be one of the best speakers made. I owned the Tamino and found much joy in it, however I always took the pilgrimage to listen to the rest of the line at a local shop.

I've never heard the Rienzi, but I have heard the Finn, Fidelio Encore, Parisfal Oviation, Sarastro, and Lohengrin II. The consensus at this shop that I visit is that Verity begins at the Fidelio Encore, and I agree. You get some signature sound at the entry level but Verity does what it does best at the mid to higher end of the spectrum.

I've moved away from Verity with my speaker change to the JMR Emeraude but will continue to enjoy all that the Verity line has to offer.

Congratulations on finding a great speaker!

The Leonore looks like a great speaker, but should I not be a little concerened about the Scandinavian designed tweeter made in Indonesia?

No. Tweeters are not that important in the scheme of things. Midrange and Bass drivers are much more important.

Have you considered Active PMC's - they come with Bryston amps - so a good portion is Canadian and they are world class.

"No. Tweeters are not that important in the scheme of things. Midrange and bass drivers are much more important".
I won't be as bold as to disagree. IMO, at the 16K price point, there should be excellent drivers throughout. I have no doubt that Verity has done that w/ the Leonore. If it is in the league of the Parsifal, + the fact that it is 4db more efficient, it will be a winner. That said, there seems to be a few speakers lines, where many have second guessed that manufacturers choice of tweeter. As we all know, implementation of any driver used is just as imporant.

The speakers we have been discussing, Verity Audio Rienzi and Leonore, driven by a Luxman 590Aii integrated amp, are not ones that I can audition in my city.

Some days I think that I should just play it safe and buy stuff that I can see, touch, audition TOGETHER, and enjoy such as B&W 803d speakers driven by Bryston electronics (BP-26 and 4B or 14B SST2) with either a Bryston or Esoteric CD player.

Trying to put together a system on paper that is "better" means that I will hear it for the first time after I buy it and set it up in my listening room. This goes totally against the conventional wisdom of the "the demo is everything".

Is buying an entire system sight unseen a risk worth taking, and is it even an intelligent approach to spending a considerable sum of money?

Regards,

Mark

Duh! For that kind of money take a long weekend and plan a visit somewhere - so that you can audition.

I wish I had the flexibility to do that, but I don't. Montreal has a lively audio scene, but it is roughly the same distance from Toronto as New York, Washington DC, Philadelphia, Pittsburgh, and Columbus. Verity Audio is made in Quebec City, which is further from Toronto than any of the above cities.

I live in Canada's largest city, and I should be able to put together a satisfying system from components available for demo in local dealers.

B&W 803d speakers sound good to me at that price point, and they are a highly regarded speaker made by a reputable company. B&W has invested considerable R&D in making drivers and crossovers for the 800 series in-house, and their curved cabinets in Denmark.

The B&W 803d and the Verity Audio Rienzi cost about the same, but I cannot audition the Rienzi, nor can I compare the two brands.

Is it not better to stick to the devil you know?

Regards,

Mark

Mark,

FWIW I would stay away from the 803d model unless you like a midrange scoop. The tweeter is crossed over at 4 Khz. Inevitably this means that the large 6 inch midrange will beam at the frequencies between 1 and 4 Khz.

This is definitely not world class design and like the 802d it is an expensive speaker to have such a gaping midrange hole (look at Figure 5 and you can see the off axis grand canyon response across the midrange).

B&W do make some absolutely awesome speakers - however finding the gems is a little tricky as they have more models than Imelda Marcus has shoes.

Caveat: Some love the midrange scoop because of the extra emphasis and sizzle that this places on the highs and lows (sounds very detailed or resolving and with a bass emphasis that is extremely impressive - although you can easily achieve this with tone controls on a more precise speaker should you prefer that kind of sound).

Thanks for the technical insights regarding the 803d vs. 802d midranges.

It certainly sounds like most of you are leaning in favour of Verity Audio as opposed to B&W, and from my limited experience in listening to the entry level Verity Audio speaker (Finn) I can see why.

There was some discussion above about Skaanng, Scan Speak and SEAS drivers. Scan Speak was founded by E. Skaaning, and Skaaning is now AudioTechnology. Both are now Danish owned.

The Rienzi has all Scandinavian made drivers (Scan Speak tweeter and woofer, SEAS midrange).

In comparing the previously discussed Skaaning (AudioTechnology) midrange to a similar SEAS midrange, the moving mass and excursion is indeed greater in the Skaaing. In comparing the frequency range of the the two midrange drivers, the SEAS is 400-5000 Hz whereas the Skaaning is 36-3800 Hz. The Skaaning's excursion and moving mass are greater as it is doing double duty as a bass/midrange driver and would be suited to a two-way speaker. The SEAS only goes down to 400 Hz, hence the smaller mass and excursion suited to a three way speaker, necessitating a woofer as well.

I am satisfied that the Rienzi has all the right bits and that Verity Audio has selected the appropriate drivers.

So what the heck, buying Rienzi plus Luxman sight unseen is not an overly reckless or risky proposition.

Regards,

Mark

+1 to Mtdking and Tuboo!

Mark,

My remark was not in favor of Verity versus B&W. Both are similar designs and suffer from Grand Canyon midrange scoop. (large midrange that beams)

As an example of a better design (staying with B&W) take a look at this smooth on and off axis response of the B&W Nautilus 805 - now that is world class with the tweeter crossed over lower and closer to the point where the large midrange starts to beam like a flashlight.

Thank-you.

For many reasons I prefer to buy new.

If I buy Verity Audio speakers, the Rienzi is probably as high as I can go. Yes, the Leonore and Parsifal are probably better speakers, but they are around double the price of the Rienzi!

The Rienzi is at the same price point as the B&W 803d, and though I cannot compare the two in person, it looks like the Rienzi may be the better choice for me. Either way, they are both speakers I could live with and enjoy.

Choosing a system is fraught with compromises, impossible choices, and second guessing. I feel like I am making the wrong choices for the right reasons, and visa versa.

In the final analysis its about enjoying the music, not listening to the equipment.

Regards,

Mark

Mark the Rienzi is an AMAZING speaker! It may look small but it has a BIG sound! It's definetelly completely different from the B&W but I can assure you it will be a long time partner!

That is from a Verity lover and owner...:-)

Enjoy!

Mike

Thanks!
Mark

In the December 2009 issue of Stereophile not only do they review the Verity Audio Leonore, they also short listed the Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation and the Verity Audio Sarastro II for 2009 Product of the Year.

In the October 2009 issue they included the Parsifal, Sarastro, and Rienzi in their listing of recommended components.

They favourably mentioned the new Finn in a trade show report.

Verity Audio is a small Canadian company, and to have almost their entire product line discussed or reviewed recently in Stereophile makes a very strong statement.

I read reviews with a jaded eye, but with Verity Audio I think that they may be on to something.

Regards,

Mark

Verity Audio is a small Canadian company, and to have almost their entire product line discussed or reviewed recently in Stereophile makes a very strong statement.

In the October 2009 issue they included the Parsifal, Sarastro, and Rienzi in their listing of recommended components.

Verity Audio is a small Canadian company, and to have almost their entire product line discussed or reviewed recently in Stereophile makes a very strong statement.

I read reviews with a jaded eye, but with Verity Audio I think that they may be on to something.

I don't think you can really conclude anything ("a very strong statement' and that "Verity are on to something") from Stereophile. They rarely say anything negative about anything and their recommended components list is huge.

Like cars, nearly everything you see discussed in the rags is "best in its class" or the best thing since sliced bread. What you can be assured of is that Verity at least make an excellent product... but attributing that they are really something "special" or head and shoulders above the rest may be a stretch.

What is generally most reliable about Stereophile is John Atkinson's final paragraph on the measurements. If he drops a few hints that the measurements are "idiosyncratic" or uses another euphemism like that...

All I am trying to point out is that a small company with a small advertising budget has received a huge amount of exposure in an audio magazine in another country, and that makes a strong statement about its products.

I fully agree that the great degree of arbitrary subjectivity of most audio reviews coupled with the many variables involved means that one must be cautious in interpreting the outcomes. I have no way of assessing the integrity, taste, or qualifications of most reviewers.

That said, having most of its product line reviewed or discussed recently suggests that Verity Audio have something special to offer. They sure don't have the marketing, entertaining, or discounted sample budget of some of the larger players that are in a position to influence the audio press in ways that have nothing to do with the excellence of their products.

Regards,

Mark

I had a chance to audition the Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation yesterday, driven by a 20 wpc pure class A Luxman integrated amp. OMG!!!!

Not only are they not difficult to drive, they are incredibly musical and wonderful sounding speakers that connect you to the music and transport you to a better place...

Now I have to move a mountain... "Honey, you remember the 10K we needed for speakers, well actually we need 20K." Sigh...

Regards,

Mark

Mark, Something is not jiving here. I tried an Art Audio Jota on my Encores, and it was not even close to being enough power. It didn't drive them, not even a matter of opinion. Either the amp you heard was the ballsiest 20 watts ever, or perhaps you were hearing the Leonore. This is all IMHO, but honestly the Parsifal needs at least 65 watts to shine. All that said, I agree that the Parsifal is a great speaker.

They were most definitely the Parsifal Ovations, and the amp was 20 wpc pure class A (I was told that would be equivalent to about 150 wpc in a class AB amp).

I have the original Parsifals driven by a Graaf GM50 integrated tube amp (50w, push-pull design). It's extremely musical combination with a quiet background. Yes, a 50w all tube amp can drive the Parsifals to loud (and clean) levels, although the Ovation I hear is a little more demanding of power. Anyway, I could not be happier, especially for vocals.

I would love to try an OTL amp like Tenor Audio (budget permitting).

Guys obviously it depends on the size of the room, Musical Tastes and how loud we like to listen.

But Toronto416 is spot on when saying that Verities are "incredibly musical and wonderful sounding speakers that connect you to the music and transport you to a better place".

This is exactly what Verity is about.

It is almost 1.5 year that I own the Sarastro and everyday I discover new things about them. Everytime its like listening to them for the very first time....:)

You cant go wrong with Verity!

EXCEPTIONAL speakers!

I have auditioned two Verity Audio speakers - the Finn and the Parsifal Ovation.

The Parsifal blew me away - it is a wonderful speaker!

The Rienzi is much closer to my budget, but I cannot audition it.

Has anyone compared the Rienzi to the Parsifal?

How much of the Parsifal magic does the Rienzi have?

Regards,

Mark

Mark,

Curious to know what you thought of the Finn compared to the flagship Parsifal.

Thanks.

JB

I thought that the Finn was very good and more musically engaging and acurate than the more expensive B&W 803d that I had been contemplating.

Comparing the Finn to the Parsifal is not really fair, because the Parsifal is truly stunning, and at more than three times the price they did not have to make the same design compromises to meet a certain price-point. To keep the cost of the Finn lower, certain compromises had to be made. The drivers in the Finn are Scandinavian designs made (I think) in Indonesia. All that aside, it is a very musically satisfying speaker. I thought she was wonderful and beautiful until I met her older sister - who simply took my breath away.

The Parsifal is a no compromise 20K speaker with Danish made drivers custome made for Verity Audio (the midrange was specially designed for the Parsifal by Skaaning himself, and is apparently VERY costly). The bass and midrange drivers are manufactured by Audio Technology, and the tweeter is a modified Revelator made by Scan Speak.

Much as I would love to live with the Parsifal, I think that I will have to settle for the middle sister - Rienzi. Has anyone seen or heard her?

Regards,

Mark

Mark, it sounds like the Ovation's may be out of your comfort range price wise. It is certainly out of the range of many, including myself at the moment. Your thread is interesting to me, as the Parsifal Encore brought me several years of listening enjoyment. The speaker I replaced it with, at nearly double the price, did not hold a candle to the Parsifal. I have not heard the Rienzi, but have spoken with a few who have, and compared it to the Parsifal. I can pass on the following advice based on those comments. This advice is based on the assumption you cannot stretch to afford the Leonore or a new or used Ovation. I would go with the Fidelio Encore or if you can, a Parsifal Encore. I have seen the P/E's for under 6K used, and obviously the F/E's would be even less. If it is worth anything, the Fidelio I believe are easier to drive. I have heard the Leonore, and was very impressed by it. No knock on the Finn, but if you will be using a good 60+ wpc, the Finn couldn't touch the used Encores at around the same price.

Guys the Rienzi is a Parsifal for a smaller room. If such assumptions can be made, I would say that the Rienzi is 80% the performance of the Parsifal. Dont let its small size fool you, it can create a huge soundstage with loads of low end and great timbre accuracy. Actually together with the Parsifal and the Sarastro are my favourite Verity speakers! You cant go wrong with the Rienzi, trust me on that!

Enjoy your search!

Mike

I am myself considering the Fidelio route (first version). There's no question Verity are great speakers, but they are also overpriced and I can't and wouldn't want to spend their retail price, regardless of their qualities.
The ATA flight cases for the Parsifal, for example, might be a wise marketing move but they must significantly add to the price of the speakers, which could as effectively be shipped in cartons like all other manufacturers do.
Just my two cents!

Jbcortes you wouldnt say that if you knew from personal experience how crappy the wooden cases are and how great the ATA ones. I wanted to sell my kharma 3.2 and it was impossible to send it anywhere due to the horrible wooden cases.

With the ATA I can pack them in 10 minutes and send them all over the world without having a doubt that they will be deelivered in the same condition they left my home.

Bottom line, I kind of agree that they are overpriced, but there are TONS of other companies that are a lot more....;)

just my 2 cents

Hi Argyro,

I totally agree with you, there are TONS of overpriced products around there, and a lot of them not even good!

I hear what you're saying about the ATA cases. I'm sure they're good. But a well-designed (I insist on that) cardboard box, with proper decoupling, preformed foam, etc... will be as efficient and cheaper (if only because it weighs less). It's all about shock absorbtion and breaking the transmission of energy in case of impact.

But another idea then, it'd be great if Verity offered the flight cases as an option... Maybe it would put the Parsifals within reach. :)

I'm pretty sure not using flight cases, between the cost of the cases themselves and the lower shipping weight, would shave something like $2000 off the price.

JB

As I said, my advice came from someone whom I respect, but my opinion is based on his advice. It sounds as if Michael has heard the Rienzi, so I would follow his advice. I am sure you will be happy with them. Verity does not make a bad speaker, that's for sure. Although, if you go used, I cannot think of a better speaker for $5900-$6500 than Parsifal Encores.

I agree! I'd also prefer a used, but in good condition, Parsifal encore!! Awesome speaker that you can listen for hours!;)

After much listening, research, thought and discussion, I am able to consider the Verity Audio Parsifal Ovation powered by a Luxman integrated amp (either the 590Aii or the 509u).

After hearing the Parsfals I knew that anything else would seem (to me) like a compromise. The music came alive and took my breath away, and they were powered with only 20 wpc (though pure class A, Luxman integrated).

All that is left is to choose between the two Luxman integrateds (590Aii or 590u) and a cdp, either a Luxman D-06 or an Esoteric X-05.

Almost there...

Mark

Mark:

You have gone through a very thoughtful process and received a lot of good advice. As a current owner of Verity and DeVore Fidelity speakers, I would offer some further comments for your consideration.

WRT Verity, I was disappointed in the Leonore's when compared to the Fidelio Encore's I own. The Leonore's go a little higher and deeper and are a little easier to drive, but when I listen to them, I do not hear the musical refinement and accuracy that are so abundant in the FE's. The Parsifal Ovation's are like FE's on steroids, although the Ovation's are harder to drive.

I realize you have not asked for alternative speaker recommendations, but I will nonetheless suggest that you consider auditioning the DeVore Fidelity Silverback's. At $16800 they are WAY underpriced IMHO, and are of course less than the Parsifal Ovation's. The Silverback's are the speakers that I can afford (if money were no object I would own the Shindo Latour's) that have stolen my heart and taken up permanent residence in my primary system, a system that over the past year began with the Sonus Faber Auditor M's, then the Verity FE's, and now (finally) the Silverback's. Like the Verity FE's, the Silverback's have a high degree of sonic refinement and accuracy. But what I greatly prefer about the Silverback's over the Verity FE's, Parsifal Ovation's, and even the Sarastro's to some degree, is how musically engaging the Silverbacks are. This is the one criterion that elevates the Silverback's over Verity in my experience. As much as I value refinement and accuracy in a speaker, in the end it must also be musically engaging. If you do audition the Silverback's, I would be curious to learn of your reaction to them versus the Parsifal Ovation's.

Good luck in your musical quest!

If you'd like to compromise further, this is coming:
Amadis ... sorry for the tease.

Luxman makes nice amps. The Lamm M1.2 is another one.

Thanks for your thoughtful responses.

I have an additional reason for choosing Verity, and that is that I am Canadian and want to support the best of Canadian audio (where possible).

The Verity Amadi sounds interesting - how much will it be? Is it replacing the Parsifal or is it lower in the food chain and replacing the Rienzi?

I want to add that this forum has been most helpful and informative. Many thanks to you all!

Regards,

Mark

I just checked the Verity Audio website - the Amadis is further UP the food chain than the Parsifal, and sits between the Parsifal and the Sarastro II.

The Amadis therefore fills the $15K price gap between the $20K Parsifal and the $35K Sarastro II.

I think that the Parsifal will be just fine for me!

Regards,

Mark

I have been enjoying the Verity Audio Parsifal Ovations for several months now, driven by the Luxman 509u integratd amp and Luxmn D-06 cdp. As a system it sounds wonderful, and the electronics match well with the speakers.

I enjoy classical music (piano, chamber) and jazz. I listen to a lot of solo piano, and I often feel like there is an actual Steinway D playing live in front of me.

Interestingly Redbook can sound as good as SACD to me when it is well recorded. Some Chandos and Hyperion recordings from the early 90's sound superb.

To be honest, I have stopped listening to the equipment and worrying about individual components. I now lose myself in the music and thirst to hear more. This is a system that conveys the essence of well played music.

I have been enjoying the Verity Audio Parsifal Ovations for several months now

Agreed they have a wonderful laid back smooth sound. Soft mids and some warmth in the bass.

Interestingly Redbook can sound as good as SACD to me when it is well recorded. Some Chandos and Hyperion recordings from the early 90's sound superb.

Yes Chandos and Hyperion are high quality CD's. Since you like piano and Jazz - try also Dave Grusin's Homage to Duke.

Thanks for the suggestion - I bought the Dave Grusin cd yesterday and it is wonderful music making that also sounds wonderful (and its 1993 Redbook).

Speaking of older Redbook, the cd that I keep going back to was recorded in 1988 (!!!), called 'A Tribute To Louis Armstrong' by The Sackville All Stars (Jim Galloway, Ralph Sutton, Milt Hinton, Gus Johnson) - Sackville 3042. It is a real gem, and it also happens to sound wonderful.

Proof that even older Redbook can sometimes sound good!

In the final analysis this is about enjoying the music, not just agonizing over the equipment.