Velodyne Digital Drive Series subwoofer in stereo

Actually, I'm using some extemely high end Radio Shack speakers for which I paid $34.95...which is probably more than what you paid for your Walgreens Sonicbox speakers.

You children obviously need to do quite a bit more research if you'd like to carry on an intelligent conversation about bass. Didn't realize I was playing in a sandbox....I'm outta here. :(

R U the same Opalchip who's on the Fuji forums?

Thanks for the backup explanation, btw. :)

This whole stereo sub thing is nonsense. Hardly any info there. Hardly heard. If you can detect a difference, it's because there are now TWO subs in the room instead of one, and the strain on the single sub will now be halved. It's the transients you hear first when it comes to bass, and those transients are almost always located above the crossover point..ie..in your mains. The ONLY possible way you "might" be able to increase the "spaciousness" in your subs is if you physically locate them directly to the sides of your head (ala Lexicon pre-pros)...and even THAT is of dubious benefit. MUCH research has been done on this. If you really want to improve the bass, yeah, buy two subs...but DON'T bother running them in stereo. Either stack 'em or spend a LOT of time and effort situating them properly.
Done

I shall, my friend, and YOU enjoy what you THINK you can hear. :)

Folks, as it so happens, I had a pair of Velodyne HGS-10 subs. Yes, a PAIR. I experimented with many locations...stereo, opposite walls, 1/3 wall, staggered, etc. I ended up stacking them and placing the stack just outside of a corner. Even played with a Behringer (very difficult learning curve).

Gmood1, what I meant to say is that there's hardly ANY out-of-phase information in the low bass regions where subs operate, and even if there is, it's NON-DIRECTIONAL...ie...it makes no difference. There is NO imaging at frequencies that low. If somebody thwacks a 50hz bass drum note, the imaging will come from the over-80hz transients located in your MAINS, and not the sub.

And btw, the Velodyne HGS series play with undetectable distortion in the first place, so the addition of the second sub served merely to increase overhead. The pair of HGS-10's has been replaced with a single DD-10, which will soon be upgraded to a DD-12.

Wc65mustang, my system is indeed high end enough to be able to discern a difference IF there was one. There wasn't. And my subs were as properly integrated as experimentation allowed. If I should ever decide to experiment with two subs again, I'll have YOU come over to demonstrate your special integration skills, but only if I can blindfold you to see if you can detect a difference. :)

On 99% of cd's, low bass out-of-phase info just isn't there...period.

>>I suggest you spend part of your discretionry dollars on a good audiologist.<<

Do you have to work on being obnoxious, or does it come naturally?

Instead of attacking the message, you choose to attack the messenger. Instead of giving your own opinion about the sonic superiority stereo configured subs, why not show some pertinent research. If you actually DO do some research, you'll find that when multiple subs are recommended, they are never done so in a stereo configuration. Multiple subs ARE sometimes recommended by those who have the patience, expertise, and measuring equipment necessary to find the nodes, nulls, etc., but given the total number of possible sub placement permutations, I doubt that you are capable of such an installation.

Enjoy your stereo configured subs if you will, but please don't try to pass off your opinion as fact.

Much of this conversation boils down to whether or not you believe that sub-80hz bass is directional. I don't believe that it is...and my experience has born this out. Therefore, the notion of stereo bass below 80 is meaningless to me. I suspect that most manufacturers feel the same way, and this is evidenced by their inclusion of the THX standard 80hz crossover point.

http://db.audioasylum.com/cgi/t.mpl?f=speakers&m=139881

If any of you folks could produce some type of coherent argument or refutation of the widely accepted acoustic theory (OTHER than your weak anecdotal evidence), I'd have more respect for you. None of you is particularly versed in crossover filter theory. None of you can hold a beginner's discussion regarding bass management theory. None of you can even admit that whoever convinced you to buy an extra sub for the purpose of achieving stereo bass separation RIPPED YOU OFF!

IF YOU CAN'T LOCALIZE LOW BASS (<80hz), YOU CAN'T HEAR STEREO...PERIOD!

Those of you who think they can, own cheap subs that produce significant harmonic distortion. This is DIFFERENT than the HARMONICS instruments naturally produce. An INSTRUMENT playing a 70hz note will also emit a first harmonic of 140hz. That 140hz tone will give directional clues as to its direction. A sub reproducing this 70hz tone will ALSO produce the harmonic....but at the outer band of its crossover curve..ie..24db's down from the original signal. The harmonics from your mains will COMPLETELY mask that of the subwoofer if your subwoofer is decent and has low distortion. THUS, if you use a decent, low distortion sub, with a 24 db/octave xover, the sub will play the 70hz tone, and the mains will provide the directional cues in stereo.

You can't deep bass in stereo no matter HOW much you THINK you can. The stereo effects are produced in your mains. Cross the sub over at no more than 80hz, use a higher order xover, and save the money you would have spent on an extra sub for CD's and DVD's. OR...give it to the dealer who convinced you to buy the extra sub...heh heh.

"You think, therefore you hear".

experiment: If you have a LOW distortion sub (like a Velo HGS or DD model) and have it crossed over at 80hz or lower, disconnect the mains. Then, close your eyes and have a friend move the sub around. See if you can point to the sub with your eyes closed. You won't be able to.

Raul,

I think you have your xover notion a little mixed up. The THX standard (they don't know anything about sound now, do they?!) xover is a second order HIGH PASS of 12db per octave at 80hz for the mains or satellites and a complimentary LOW PASS Linkwitz-Reilly (24db/octave) crossover of 80hz for the sub. This means that an 80hz tone will be down 12db's at 40hz in your satellites, and down 24db's at 160hz in your sub. That is why it is suggested that satellites or mains be capable of decent output one octave below the xover frequency.
And the reason you can locate the bass drum in a concert hall is because of the harmonics of its transients and the fundamental tone...which will be played in its full stereo glory BY YOUR MAINS. If that same bass drum could ONLY play it's fundamental tone (no harmonic), you WOULD NOT be able to locate it.

Go play now, children.

OR do some real research.

>>This fact makes a great difference in what you say.<<

Raul, can you articulate what the difference is?

The fact that the low pass slope starts out at 12db merely means that its initial rolloff is rather shallow...just like some of the respondents in this thread. If you read Velodyne's website, you'll find that the 12db/octave slope is its INITIAL slope, and that it drops off quite sharply after that...as high as 48db/octave!

Once again, this has nothing to do with one's ability to detect the location of deep bass. If you play a 30, 40, 50hz pure tone thru a low distortion sub (<10%THD), YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO TELL WHERE IT IS COMING FROM...PERIOD!!!!!!

If you say you CAN tell where that pure tone is coming from, not only are you completely delusional, but you probably believe in magic and all other sorts of nonsense. Try the above experiment and prove it to yourself....you obviously don't believe ME or ANYBODY ELSE who has bothered to do the research.

And if you can't tell where those low notes are coming from, YOU CAN'T PERCEIVE IT IN STEREO...PERIOD!!! What don't you understand about this?

So much has been written on this subject matter that it never ceases to amaze me how gullible people are who still force themselves to believe otherwise. Yeah, the earth is flat too...phhht.

If you want to mitigate the financial damage you've already done by wasting money on two subs, at least make the most out of the situation. Get an spl and chart paper and locate the subs so that they excite as many room modes as possilbe.
Better yet, place those left/right subs directly to the sides of your listening couch for an "ENHANCED perception of bass". This effect is only good from around 40-80hz, but is NOT "stereo bass". It's due to hrtf's...head related transfer functions. David Greisinger (Lexicon's "Bass Enhance") is one of the most respected bass researchers in the world and you would do well to read up on his research. Floyd Toole (Canada's National Research Council, head of Harman International Research Group) and Tom Nousaine are also close to his equals. Also pose these questions to psychoacousticians, acoustical engineers, and Phd.'s that you may come across.
Don't listen to me or the children in this thread. Read and listen for yourself. Perhaps some of you responders are subwoofer sellers and have a vested interest in perpetuating the false notion of stereo bass in order to sell more subs???

Regarding the Velodyne crossover slope, that's merely indicative of Velodyne's marketing choices, priorities, and compromises. Velodyne knows that most folks have a processor that gives a xover slope of 24db/octave, so why duplicate that in the sub? Why not give them something different? Same goes with their passive high pass filter. It's a shallow 6db/octave slope which some folks prefer, but most folks will choose the steeper 12db/octave high pass filter in their processor. A shallowe slope is ok, but if you cross it over rather high (80hz or >), the blend with the mains may sound a little bloated in the crossover region due to the overabundance of bass information there. Hey, it's all a matter of taste, but don't confuse crossover slopes with stereophonic deep or midbass, which doesn't exist. For purposes of discussion, I consider "deep" bass to be the first octave, or 20-40hz. To me, midbass is the second octave, or 40-80hz. Anything above that, I consider to be upper bass. Some people's definitions vary a little.

Mustang,

Call me all the names that you will. You have not shown ANY credentialed literature to back up your inference of being to hear stereo bass. Shall I assume you mean UPPER BASS, perhaps? Actually, Phil Newell IS an intelligent studio engineer and I have browsed his book a bit. Can you point to any particular passage where he claims that we can reliably perceive directionality in the low and midbass(subwoofer) regions?????? If not, kindly close the claptrap and peddle your subwoofer sales elsewhere.
Next you'll be talking about animal hearing experiments, right?......phhhht.