VAC / Wilson cables

Some experienced VAC customers and VAC dealers will tell you that the Renaissance amps are the best amps made by VAC and that switching to the Phi amp will be a step backwards. VAC stopped making the Renaissance amps because customers were not happy about the high cost of retubing with 300B's (the Phi amps use cheap pentodes) and the high electrical draw resulting from the Renaissance amps' Class A biasing. In addition, production costs are lower with the use of circuit boards - the Phi amps use cheap circuit boards - instead of the expensive point-to-point wiring used on the Renaissance amps. Of VAC's current production amps, only the very expensive "Statement" amps feature point-to-point wiring.

You would gain a bit more power with the Phi amp, because, having approximately two times the wattage of the 70/70, you can expect to obtain approximately 3 db. of additional volume.

You should definitely audition the Phi amp in your system before purchasing one. I'm not saying that the Phi is a bad amp - VAC makes very good gear and provides fine service - only that you need to determine whether you already own the better amp.

Dr_john:

1) Audio Oracle sold VAC at both Innovative Audio and Sound by Singer in Manhattan for fifteen years and knows what he is talking about.

2) There's a bit more to the issue of getting good bass from a ported speaker like the Sophia when it's driven by a tube amp than just choosing a high powered amp that uses pentodes. Most 300B's do tend to be a bit fat below 30 Hz., yes, but the bass quality you get with a tube amp will be more dependent upon the quality of the output tubes you choose for it, and especially, the quality of the amp's output transformers and size of its power supplies - you can't just think about the damping factor of pentodes vs. 300B's and the choice of speaker cables. You will get better bass if you use a premium 300B like the KR Audio, E.A.T., and to a lesser extent, the better Chinese tubes (Sophia carbon plates or Shuguang Black Bottles). Also with respect to tube quality, it's important to point out that the Renaissance amps feature a push-pull circuit that is demanding on output tubes, running them at 95% of their maximum plate voltage at all times due to the Class A biasing, and for this reason, it's a necessity that carefully selected 300B's be used. I'm not just talking about choosing the right brand of tube (i.e., buying premium brands and staying away from most production coming out of Reflector or Shuguang), but making sure that the actual tubes to be used in the amps test strongly enough to withstand the circuit. In other words, each individual 300B that you put in the amp must first be carefully tested at plate voltages which resemble the voltage 300B's are run at in the Renaissance circuit in order to ensure that they will be able to handle the circuit -- this means that you have to choose a tube vendor who has appropriate testing equipment and who has integrity. Generally, as for transconductance, 300B's for the Renaissance amps should test in the 3,000-5,000 range. In addition, the plate-to-cathode voltage for 300B's in the Renaissance amps is approximately 430 volts dc, with idle current approximately 85 to 90 milliamperes in a self-bias (cathode bias) circuit. Again, this is approximately 5% below the maximum rating for the WeCo spec 300B (PS - only classic "WeCo spec" 300B's can be used in the Renaissance amps, as meshplates cannot handle the voltage, and "super 300B's" like the KR "BLX" have excessive filament current and will fry the amp). Milliamp and transconductance testing for purposes of matching must be done at these voltage levels, and many 300B's, even the best brands, will not make the cut (some KR's, which are very expensive tubes, will not meet these criteria, while a few EH's, which are very cheap, will -- the point is, each individual tube to be used in the amp must be tested in order to determine whether it meets these criteria). Sophia Electric used to market special quartets and octets for the Renaissance amps that met these heightened standards. Once you get a high quality, carefully matched set of 300B's, they last a very long time (8,000+ hours) and are linear into extremely demanding loads (they can drive 1 Ohm loads for short periods). VAC's own 300B's are rebranded Shuguang tubes that are very carefully selected, last a long time, and sound good in the Renaissance amps, but they are not the equal of carefully selected KR's or EAT's.

Regarding the crucial issue of output transformers, the output transformers are better on the Renaissance amps than the Phi amps - they are very expensive, which is the biggest reason these amps cost $14,000 twelve years ago. Before you buy a Phi amp, you should probably talk to Kevin Carter of K&K Audio - he designed the VAC Renaissance amps and can talk to you about the extreme parts quality that they featured. Years ago, when Sound by Singer started to carry Pipedreams, they were trying to find a tube amp to use with the big Pipes for purposes of demo'ing the speakers. They assumed that the VTL Brunhilde monos, a speaker that outputs 750 watts/channel, would be a good choice, but having mediocre output transformers, those amps would not drives the big Pipes. Out of curiosity, and knowing that the 70/70 is a beast (it's totally dual mono, all the way down to dual power cords and dual on/off switches, and has 1-2 Ohm taps), they gave it a try - the 65 watt/channel 70/70 drove the big Pipes beautifully.

The Renaissance amps are special - don't give up so soon.

In the last paragraph of my most recent post, I meant to write "They assumed that the VTL Brunhilde monos, AN AMPLIFIER that outputs 750 watts/channel, would be a good choice, but having mediocre output transformers, those amps would not drives the big Pipes." (Emphasis original).

While I'm at it, I'll relate another anecdote about how good the Renaissance amps are into tough loads. Innovative in Manhattan has carried B&W speakers for many years. As people knowledgeable about the B&W 801 Nautilus know, that speaker was tough to drive properly and needed to be bi-amped with good solid-state amps to really come alive. Just for laughs, Innovative hooked up the VAC Renaissance 30/30, which outputs a bit over 30 watts/channel, into their demo pair of 801N's. The amp drove the speaker, not to really loud levels, but it drove them, and nothing blew up.

The Renaissance amps were serious amps, and as far as high-powered tube amps go, the only thing I would rate as good or better are the CAT amps (BEASTLY), the better Audio Valve monoblocks, and the Air Tight Reference. The Atma-Sphere amps are also incredibly good, but being OTL designs, there are many speakers that they will not drive.

If you want to stay with VAC but just want a bit more power, you'd be better off buying another 70/70 and having the two 70/70's converted by VAC into 140/140 monoblocks. It is easy and, beyond what you'd pay for a second 70/70, not very expensive to do. Of course, I recognize that it's very expensive to properly tube these beasts, but once you put the right tubes on them, you'll be in good shape for a very long time to come (I'm still using the same set of 300B's that I put on my 70/70 in the late 90's).

John:

I'm happy to help. I should point out, however, that there are some issues with 140's:

1) 16 output tubes biased in Class A in the same room put out HEAT - the ability to adjust A/C individually for your listening room would be a help;

2) Again because of the Class A biasing, they draw a shitload of power from the wall at all times; and

3) Retubing an amp that requires 16 high-quality 300B's is EXPENSIVE, but as noted, if you do it right, you won't have to retube again for years.

Last I heard, Kevin was offering deals on Signature upgrades for the Renaissance amps. You could perhaps buy another 70/70, convert them to 140's, and get the Signature upgrade for less than you would pay for a Phi. Kevin will of course try hard to sell you a new amp -- don't expect him to say his new amps aren't better than the amps he made ten years ago.

Finally, you may want to write to other Audiogon members who have experience running Renaissance amps. Pdreher just bought a 70/70 Signature and previously ran a 30/30 Mk. III. Member Waltersalas has experience running KR Audio 300B's with his 70/70 Mk. III. Member Wavetrader has experience running Sophia carbon plates in his 140's. Member Raquel knows a lot about these amps.

There's no claim - Kevin Carter was indeed formerly with VAC and designed the Renaissance amps - ask Kevin Hayes and he will tell you. It's not a secret and there's nothing wrong with it.

In fact, most two-channel hi-fi companies are tiny one to four-man operations and a lot of their gear is designed for them by consultants working under contract on a per-project basis. I know that Kevin Carter has also worked on amps for Audio Art, and if asked, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he has consulted for other hi-fi brands.

Kevin:

Thank you for your comprehensive post. Regarding my statements about Kevin Carter, they are based upon what I was told by a dealer in North Carolina from whom I bought a pair of speakers who expressed detailed knowledge, albeit perhaps erroneous I will of course admit, about VAC. Given that he is located where VAC used to be located in North Carolina and based upon his general demeanor (a calm, serious guy who didn't appear to be the type of person who would misspeak), I took him at his word. His comments were not offhand - he specifically stated that your role at VAC was managerial in nature and that Kevin Carter did the design work. I have spoken to Kevin Carter a couple of times and the knowledge he expressed about the Renaissance amps was such that I assumed he did indeed design them, but I never asked him to confirm that he was the designer and his comments, which seemed knowledgeable to me, could of course have been informed by his position at VAC as you have described it. If it was irresponsible of me to make statements about this subject under these circumstances and I am wrong, I apologize and stand corrected.

As for my comments about many hi-fi companies hiring consultants to do design work, I was referring to hi-fi companies generally and not VAC specifically - I did not intend to state that VAC hires consultants and have no knowledge upon which to conclude that you do or don't. And again, so what if a company does - there's nothing inherently good or bad about receiving services from consultants or independent contractors, in my opinion.

Regarding Audio Oracle, my recollection is that he left Singer in 2006-2007, which would have given him ample time to get to know the initial Phi products (incidentally, how he managed to stomach Andy Singer for as long as he did is beyond me - but Sound by Singer would be a topic for another thread). It's important for me to state that I know of no one who is a bigger cheerleader for VAC products than Audio Oracle - and this, despite the fact that he is not a VAC dealer - and my intention was certainly not to get him into any hot water. He is an unusually knowledgeable guy (and a nice guy) who swears by VAC and you have him to thank for many, many VAC sales.

If any of my comments were wrong or misleading, I stand corrected and apologize. These forums are the principal means used by many people to educate themselves about audio and it's important that people be truthful and accurate.

Regarding the OP's initial question, I am sorry that this thread has veered off course. Now that I really think about it, I will also take this opportunity to say that someone told me - again, hearsay - that Kevin generally advises people to avoid networked cables for his products. Kevin, can you please comment?