.... I should have added that over sampling is just used to increase the accuracy of reading standard 16 bit 44.1 HZ CDs, but it adds nothing to the digital output stream. Craig. |
Greysquirrel; I'm no expert here, and I've had some of the same questions that you do. From reading, I've learned that upsampling and over-sampling are not the same thing. Upsampling adds dither, ie it interpolates between digital bits and then adds "sound" based on an upsampling algorithm via a DSP chip. This serves to make the digital data stream more continuous, ie more analog like. Analog meaning a continuous sound stream as opposed to the bit stream of digital output. Over sampling does not add dither or do any interpolating. Maybe Carl can help us out from here. Cheers. Craig. |
Perhaps someone on this thread can clear something up for me? I asked the question before on Audiogon: what are the differences between upsampling and oversampling? Carl, you seem to be one of many fans of the improvement wrought by upsampling. Can you explain the difference or are there differences? My understanding is that upsampling and oversampling are basically the same. By upsampling/oversampling the digital filtering can be more aggressive (outside the audio range), leaving only a gentle analog filter before output. Is this basically correct? Upsampling/Oversampling can't actually create information; the process can only allow more accurate retrieval of what is contained in the 16/44.1 signal. Right? As for oversampling, all delta/sigma (1 bit) type DACS must use oversampling. Are the new 24/96 DACS mostly delta/sigma types or are they ladder DACS? Don't mean to divert attention from the thread topic, but the recent attention to upsampling has me wondering if my understanding of the process is correct. Did mfg's just get better at implementing oversampling techniques to get better sound and needed new marketing jargon to draw interest? Thanks! |
I would like to second Kweifi. I just bought a Dodson with the 24/96 upsampling upgrade. I'm using my SCD-1 as a transport. The Dodson has taken a very good- sounding CDP and given it an expanded sounstage,greater detail and a "sparkle" that I now see was missing. All for $2500 (used). David |
I've not analized a lot of them, or taken them apart. I only know that you should look at the analog line level output section seriously, and that a compromised one usually bespeaks a philosophy based on compromise. |
Carl, in your opinion, what DACs have well-designed analog circuitry? |
I have been trying out a Dodson DA217 MkIID upsampling DAC in my system and it sounds fantastic. It has MUCH better soundstaging, tonal balance (musicality), bass and treble extension, and resolution than my current Mark Levinson 36. The difference is dramatic and made my whole system sound better! I have a system with mostly Mark Levinson equipment and bi-amped Vandersteen 3A Signature speakers. It would have been better if I could have arranged a comparison of the Dodson with an M-L 360S or a dCS combo, but I couldn't arrange it in time. If anyone has an opportunity to do this, I would be interested in hearing of their results. I did compare the 3560S with a dCS Purcell/Delius combo, and I thought that the latter sounded better, but only marginally. |
DCS is the way to go- period! Listen and you will believe - just gotta save up now... |
DCS is the way to go- period! Listen and you will believe - just gotta save up now... |
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Hi, I don't agree with Tweak1 about the Monarchy 18B seriously outclassing the Bel Canto. It defies common sense if you think about it, i.e., older technology beating the latest technology. I used a modified Monarchy D22 for reference for a long time and liked it very much--but then I bought a Parasound D/AC-2000 and liked that a little better. Now, I have the BC and feel (with my Parasound C/BD-2000 belt-drive transport)that it is on a higher plateau than either the Monarchy D22 or the Parasound. The bass is excellent, micro-dynamic contrasts--superior, and the highs are both relaxed AND detailed. For the first time, I'm hearing analogue-like air from a digital source with ordinary CDs--I don't believe the Monarchy 18B (good though it may be) can match that. However, I will say that there are many factors that can degrade the performance of the Bel Canto--so if it was set up so as to perform at a disadvantage, than anything is possible, I suppose. The unit is transport-sensitive and benefits from being placed on a properly damped, isolated base. My advice is not to believe everything you see in print. Try to make your own comparisons first-hand in a familiar system, rather than taking a stranger's word (even mine) on blind faith. Regards, Plato |
Thanks, guys. Looking foreward to the Perp Tech P3-A review. |
You may have read my glowing review of the Bel Canto on www.audiotweakers.com In anticipation of the Perpetual P3-A (we are dealers) I sold the Bel Canto. As an interim and a back up, I bought a Monarchy 18B- piggy back 18 bit dacs with a passive buffered volume control. The results were consistent with or without active Klyne 7.3 LXBP in the system. I was shocked. It was much better then the BC. Why? Most likely it's the power supply differences. The Monarchy uses a 35 watt toroid- big enough for preamps. My partner has the dCS ELgar/Purcell combo and recently bought the Accuphase DVP 75- 192 upsampling player. He was hoping the all in one box approach would be the better choice. To our ears the dCS is the clear winner, as it should be at almost twice the price. What's the point? Upsampling isn't necessarily better, and there are marked differences between very expensive upsamplers. At $995, the Monarchy is an outstanding performer, but my Perpetual Tech P3-A should be here any day. Check our website in a week or two for a review. |
As far as actually getting true 140dB performance, the only DAC that even claims this is the new $15,000 Boulder (no, I've not heard it). The DAC's in question have NOT tested to 140dB, in any test I've seen. You have to keep in mind that the analog circuit after the DAC would have to be RADICALLY quiet, and there are hardly any in the world that are, especially anything in the $1000 price range, and MOST especially anything that must operate within, or near, digital circuitry (like a DAC). |
I too have been worrying about this problem. The problem is that one really has to listen to these DACs to compare them and it is not possible to find dealers that carry more than one line. It becomes especially difficult with the various upgrades available and the availability of kits. I was considering the Bel Canto, the MSB LINK (and its various variants), and the Sonic Frontiers Assemblage D2D-1 upsampler and the 2.6 and 3.0 DACs. I was leaning toward the Assemblage stuff but heard from friends that the kits were difficult to assemble (especially with the upgraded components). I also went to hear and compare the dCS Purcell/Delius combo with the Mark Levinson Reference 30.6, both using a ML 31.5 transport. (I thought that the dCS sounded better, but not by much). I then heard really good things about the Dodson DA217 MkIID upsampling DAC (www.dodsonaudio.com), and will have one on approval for a week or so at my home in a couple of weeks. I'll let you know of the out come. |
Can't help with these two pieces.The thing is the "CHIP" It is just a better chip.Naturally the further up you go the better.Think about the MSB with 24/96 chip.Better than anything in that price range should sound. I have had Theata 5a for 5 years.Just did the 24/96 up grade. Best 3 hundred I ever spent.Before I broke in the new chip it was apparent what Burr Brown had wroth.(I think the first 24/96 chip)If I can't hear the dif.I should sell my stuff and get a bose radio.I'm a diet coke man!! |
