Gee, I guess I just like to know who I'm talking to. Imagine that? I expected people in this hobby to have more manners than both of you do, that's all...............I think, Jordan or Janie or Jackschmit or Jackass or whoever you are, that if you think that, somehow you know more about audio than John Atkinson (whether he's been right or wrong about any benefits of upsampling, is of little consequence...who are you, the patron saint of highend digital? For one thing, you'd need to die first...but that's another matter), that it is you who needs to keep his ego in check. You could never be anything other than envious of him, and sniping about him bears that out (and J-10 is his polar opposite, everybody knows it). There will always be those that hate people of prominance in the industry or in journalism, and he is well liked by most of us, and has done far more good, than bad (unlike you two, here). I NEVER CLAIMED TO KNOW AS MUCH AS ANY LEADING DESIGNER IN THE INDUSTRY (regarding digital audio, or anything else), so why in hell do you keep harping on this subject? I said it tens of times, that by all means, I defer to the real experts in the field (I said "Jeff Kalt is a better man than me", go look it up...what else would you have me do, sacrifice a burnt offering to him?), and to please not take what I say (when I honestly tried to explain my views, when asked to do so) as "gospel". SHOW ME WHERE I CLAIMED TO BE A MANUFACTURER, or an industry expert. I believe all I did was explain my view on the subject. I am not a manufacturer, don't pretend to be. What else is left to do, before you finally shut your pie hole on this, Jordan? Last time I checked, I wasn't on your payroll, so I guess you can't fire me. How's this, I'll continue to try shedding whatever "pathetic" (imperfect) knowledge I have on subjects in this hobby, right here in this forum...and you change your diaper, and move on. Are you obsessed with me, or something? You need a therapist. One thing I will NOT do, is stop trying to help people in this forum, where I feel like I can. You can try to stop me (for real), but please stop whining, because your posts on the subject of me are wasting Audiogon's server's memory space, and electricity for that matter. Music through audio reproduction is what's important, not interpersonal obsessions (like yours, with me)...and I should remind you that I don't play for the same-gender team (I think you've said you recently got married, but as Craig says, "who knows?"...indeed), so kindly focus your attentions on someone else. Craig seems like a good candidate, I'm sure you'll both be very happy together....unless of course you're both the same demented person. I USE MY REAL NAME, BECAUSE I, AND OTHERS, FEEL IT LENDS MORE CREDIBILITY AND HONOR, and because we are serious about the hobby. I absolutely refuse to apologize for wanting to know who I'm talking to, so get over that right now, both of you. You're both crybabies, stop wasting your time obsessing over me. I'll NOT stop participating in this forum, and I DARE you to stop me. You can't, so shut up! And if you go crying and snivelling to Tom this time, he might just be with me, so watch your back...perhaps Neil will be too...Anyhoo, I suggest you start talking about audio, and keep it off personalities (who's "right", who's "wrong"), or it is likely that YOURS will be the memberships that get revoked, not mine. And if you don't care about your member status, then you are scum, and have no business here AT ALL!!......good riddance! |
Carl; In my above post I was complimenting you for bringing it to Audiogon readers attention that JA and Sterophile have been talking about and promoting "upsampling" for quite awhile-- the rest of us kind of glossed over that important fact. The media (Stereophile) can do a lot more educating than anyone on Audiogon can, but they haven't done it in this case-- and I read and like Stereophile, and respect John Atkinson. I got particularly curious about your name interest thing when you almost singlehandedly ran Deborah1 off Audiogon; I have no interest in dwellining on this, but it seems important to you: I've been happily (mostly) married to the same woman for 35 years, and I'm totally secure in my sexuality. And I realize some of your "name play" thing is just in jest. Cheers. Craig. |
Did I miss something? Don't we all have a common bond here.Are'nt we all a bunch of obsessive, 2 channel, sweet spot loners? Dont we need to stick together here? I have an idea!!! GO ANALOG and then we will all get along very lovingly! Everyone knows(but won't admit) analog devotees are more pleased and enjoy their music more.Do you hear analog lovers arguing about this crap! |
Pheew! Anyway...One thing that does seem to be true is this: We all don't have engineering degrees, myself included, and that goes for the audio mag reviewers as well! If there is a "silver lining" to all this, it would be that the information learned here came from the highest sources! C'mon - direct input from Kevin Halverson at Muse, no less:-)! BTW: Thanks, Kevin. Jordan and Craig have contributed greatly to another ("Up and Oversampling") thread and have credible answers from reliable sources. Carl, you have as well on a variety of topics. I, for one, THOUGHT I HAD a solid understanding of the digital process from A-Z. I now know I have been a "victim" of the confusion set forth by digital "buzz words" in the industry - flowing out of the mouths of dealers, reviewers and corporate marketing. The point here is, at the end of the day, we have gained knowledge. This thread may very well save someone from spending $$$ on "new" equipment - or it may make them go buy it (either way)! I think everyone's motives have been sincere here and it has done the Audiogon community a great service. BTW: I'll STILL read Stereophile! |
Regarding the enjoyment of recorded music, what difference does it make whether the equipment upsamples, resamples, oversamples or nosamples (Sakura and Auido Note). Stop obsessing over the internal workings of the complex internal workings of our electronics. Great sounding equipment is being made using a wide variety of designs. Sit in the sweet spot and enjoy the music. |
I think about the technological triumphs that have ocurred during my short lifetime(25 years), and it makes me proud. I'm proud to have been born into an era that has seen more progress, in less time, than any period before it. When I was born, calculators took double "A" batteries, vast amounts of information was kept on microfilm, and the only computers around were roughly the size of my listening room, and could scarcely outperform my TI-85 graphic calculator. People didnt depend on computers the way we do today, simply because they didnt have the choice; if the reality of Kubrick's 2001 could have been possible, I feel certain we would have lept foreward, collectively, at once in a moment of wonder and also of nostalgia for things which we had as yet only dreamed about. I remember in 1994, when I was a freshman in college, before I purchased my first "serious" stereo thingie (a pair of Polk S10 speakers, bought in the fall of '95)when my roommate explained the "internet" and "WWW" to me, "Pretty soon", he said, "you'll be able to dig up anything you want on the information superhighway". 6 years later, and the prophecy of young Bryce Carlson has come true, and you can dig up pretty much whatever you want at the slightest whim. I can look up Shunyata Research, or B&W Loudspeakers, or (gasp) Matthew Polk's latest speakers, or the CIA, or one of several recipes for crack cocaine, for that matter, all on the internet, all in seconds. I guess what I'm saying here-BTW,thanks for the bandwidth Audiogon, and sorry for the off topic thoughts, but I started this thread, and I don't likee the way it's going- is that the internet and all the cool knowledge contained therein and so quickly dispersed thereby, is sort of a double edged sword. True, as it relates specifically to this hobby, it allows me to get a pretty good idea of a particular company's goals in designing a piece of electronics, and possibly, whether I'd like to try to audition it(and if I do, the best place to do so). It allows me to connect with other like minded people, and sling used gear amongst and between us, point to point, at fair market prices, no less. But it also creates a sort of emotional rift among humans, a decline in social situations, and therefore a loss of social skills, demonstrated in AOL chatrooms since day 1 of AOL, and more recently, in this very thread. I seriously doubt anyone that has posted anything on this thread is anything less than a kind person, with a great soul (if you believe in that sort of thing), that feels some sense of unity to the rest of the Audiogon patrons by a love of music, and perhaps a penchant for audio equipment. If you put any of us in the same room together, there is no doubt in my mind that it would be a pleasant meeting, without the least bit of latent alpha-male-I'm smarter that you-my stereo is better-BULLSHIT that has become the norm, both on internet sites like Rec.audio, Audiogon, even old Audioreview, and also magazines like the letters section of Stereophile and other printed magazines devoted to our hobby. People like JA and J-10 (Johns, Atkinson and Scull,for the non-Stereophile readers) are a huge benefit to our hobby, and, agree or disagree with their opinions, you should remain in awe and appreciation for the information they have made available to us. As far as the different opinions expressed in this site, and specifically, this thread, you all should be just as appreciative and open minded as if you were talking to John Atkinson, or Jeff Kalt, or Kevin Halverson, or John Curl, or Ray Kimber, or Paul Hales, or John Dunlavy. We all have the same goal. Promote a love for the reproduction of music that is dear to us. Some person may thrash the opinion of John Atkinson in a letter in Stereophile, but I'd bet the farm that if that person were to bump into JA at the grocery store, it would be all-"Nice to meet you Mr Atkinson, I'm a fan of your magazine...What's it like to have access to some of the coolest gear on the planet??" As a recording engineer (in my own mind), I'd ask him how he likes his B&K Omnidirectional microphones, and has he tried the new Microtech Geffell cardiods, and so forth. Off the subject, I'm a little disappointed that he allowed the recent down-grading of the B&W Nautilus 805 speakers, because the magazine reviewed the larger 803 speakers a couple of months later, and they were also found to be "Class A, Restricted Low Frequency" so the 805s were down rated to "Class B, Restricted Low Frequency" apparently because they are both made by B&W (and apparently, this was NOT KOSHER with someone). Now this seems to be a case of the business office having a say in the editorial process, and they accept advertising, so how can this not be... But that does not discount all the things Mr Atkinson has done for my hobby. I would be honored to speak with him about our common interests, and agree or disagree, I would not resort to name calling or insults to try to make my point seem more worthwhile. This is precisely the problem with "E-Pinions"(I think I just made a buzzword!), such as the opinions offered here. They lack the face to face kind of interaction that we apparently need to retain our civility. It's the same principal at work that to some degree occurred (so I'm told) when the telephone was first becoming common. People would call whomever had the device, total strangers, amazed that they could talk to someone across town, or across the country, or later, across the world. On the flip side of that coin, who among us never participated in some sort of prank call? Sorta takes the wind out of your sails if you're standing directly in front of the person you're about to prank call doesn't it? I find it much harder not to be nice to someone that is standing in front of you compared to a telemarketer, for example, on the telephone. Here we are, talking to each other, and we dont know each other, were just sorta "in here" together, and we don't have the common courtesy we might offer the grocery store clerk down the street, or a used car salesman, for that matter, simply because we have to look into their eyes, but here in this electric world, there's the feeling of anonymity, that allows us to be so rude. This, in my opinion, is what is wrong with our hobby, and why the general public is so dismissive and critical of "wierdos" that spend thousands of dollars on stereo equipment. Never mind the snobbery that occurs from time to time in HiFi Boutiques, you need but look into a popular information exchange medium, be it printed or electronic, to see the kind of male dominant ego type of behavior that most of us no longer give a second thought to, (And someone asked why there are so few women audiophiles). Gentlemen, (I think most of us are men, and therefore we can choose to be gentlemen) I'm asking all of you who read this to raise your own bar, so to speak. Not because I'm offended by anything I read here, but because I've seen it happen before. Lets all try to be a little more tolerant of people that may be mis-, under- or differently- informed that we are, OK? Lets try to behave as if we were meeting that person, face to face, to talk about a common interest. Lets all go out and attend a local audio club or group. If there's not one, then lets make one. Just think, you can be the president! I suggest that we try to remember why we're here, and conduct ourselves in this forum, and in life, in a manner that would make our mothers proud. Respect each other, respect the common love. Thank your lucky stars that it's 2000AD and we have the means, both to hear any piece of music imaginable at the drop of a hat, and to be able to talk with other like-minded individuals on the other side of the planet about it. Joe Cunningham |
I most certainly did not "run" Deborah out of this forum! She is a very busy musician and educator, and doesn't spend every waking moment in this forum. She has better things to do, mostly. I'll have all of you know, that I have become acquainted with both Deborah, and her husband Robert. We see eye to eye on TWO pieces of equipment that we both own (one is the CD50), and I find them to be very well heeled and intelligent individuals, both in audio and music (especially music, I pale before them). And I resent all of the attacks that I have received in this whole episode. I AM NO BIGOT, NO SEXIST, NO SOPHOMORIC THROWBACK. I am just more honest than many of you PI blowhards, that's all...Joe, I appreciate your attempt to conclude this thread on a high note, and regret that I needed to add this. You'll get over it...BTW, you aren't the first to make the observations you make, many are obvious. On mics: ever try "Blue" omni mics? Saw them in "Musician's Friend" catalog, look interesting, but are expensive (for me), and I have no mic pres with phantom power (cuts out essentially all the good ones)...Knocking on the door of the Neumann price range... |
Very well said, Joe!! I apologize for my contribution to the more distasteful parts of this thread and will try to raise my bar. On the subject of journalists, I wasn't speaking about John Atkinson or "J-10" in my post above. Actually, the specific article that I was referring to was the Wadia/dCs comparison in "Hi-Fi News and Record Review". I do think it was irresponsible of them to compare two different processors and try to attribute the differences to "upsampling vs. oversampling", particularly since they are two words for the same thing AND everything else about the two units was also different. That just shows that they did not understand how to set up an experiment to test for differences (eg. compare same processor and change only the oversampling digital filter, for example). Anyway, point well taken, Joe!! Live the good life! Jordan |
Just came across a commentary by Kevin Halverson on the MUSE Web Site in their DOCUMENTS SECTION which I found EXTREMELY interesting and informative entitled -- Sample Rate Converters (up & oversamplers) & their use in Digital Audio CHECK IT OUT AT: http://museelectronics.com |
Just read Kevin's article at the Muse site. I think it caps this discussion nicely. Check it out: http://www.museelectronics.com/download.html |
Joe; for a 25 year old you certainly have a mature and positive outlook on life. I read your long post carefully and it's excellent-- I share your views, and apologize for contributing to some of the negativity found here. The only quibble I chose to mention (and it's minor) is that I would not be "in awe" of meeting people such as J. Atkinson or audio industry leaders, but of course I would be pleased to meet them. But that's my perspective at age 57, and after completion of a 32 year career as a Senior Forest Soil Scientist (last 15-16 years) with the Dept. of Interior here in Oregon. I only mention my profession to let others know something about me. Men (especially) often define themselves by their professions, businesses or job(s) etc., and I would be interested in knowing about others in this regard. But it is seldom ever noted here on Audiogon; as a positive example, I respected David99 for telling us he was a nurse as that tells me a lot about him. Carl, what pray tell, does PI mean? As I want to know what kind of a blowhard I am (if you're referring to me)? And I'm glad to hear that you and Deborah1 and her husband have become email friends. I had occasion to exchange emails with her too-- nice lady. I hope she'll come back on Audiogon. Cheers (and I mean CHEERS). Craig. |
My thanks to Kevin Halverson at MUSE for posting his explanation of up and over sampling-- I just read and copied it-- it's great. And I agree with Treyhoss' post above-- it caps this confusing issue nicely. Thanks. Craig. |
You guys are unbelievable. Carl, take a pill, or two. How can a topic such as this get so many people so worked up? Really, who gives a flyin' f**k about upsampling DACS unless you're selling them ? CHILL!!!!!!!! |
This is unbelievable. I'm reminded of the TV show 'Dallas' |
Was anyone else out there forced to read the "Transactions of the Royal Academy" between Newton, Huygens and Hook over the refraction of light? Once you got past all the s's looking like f's it's a pretty hilarious account of the science, a la Newton, vs. the B.S. from Hook, and thirty years later, I think Linus, with his "homonculus", the little guy that bends the light. Anyway, this thread reminded me of that, it only remains to assort the cast of characters. A little knowledge is truly a dangerous thing and apparently breeds bad manners. Of course that didn't keep me from splitting my sides. |
Yes!!! IT LIVES!!! Thanks to Kitch29 for resurrecting one of the best!! |
