Upper Level Vintage DD Strenghts and Weaknesses

So far the front runner is going to be a Denon DP80 and possibly a DP75. If I did the DP80 it comes in the Denon DK300 plinth, and that one looks to be pretty well made. This is the one I am considering, although I don't know the tone arm packaged with it. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/154156555932

There is another one of these tables with an Audiocraft AC3000 attached in the same plinth and its $400 more. I might see if they will swap arms and I pay the additional monies as that arm is a good buy even though I don't need it for this project. 

The other option is here on Audiogon and that is a DP75 in a VPI plinth. I have owned that combination before, and to be honest the plinth is pretty primitive. Its redeeming feature is that massive top plate. The springs are problematic and no way to tune them. But its an attractive combo, but does not have an arm board. Its drilled for the 401 arm, but the mounting base to the Dynavector DV505 should cover that hole. 

https://www.audiogon.com/listings/lisaa94c-denon-dp-75-with-vpi-plinth-oak-turntables


Now if I did buy a DP80 this is my end goal of table. Perhaps not the electrical modifications the person has made, but the plinth is the appearance I want to go for. I suppose I can reuse the DK300 plinth and put another Denon table in there for resale with the less expensive arm if I go that way. But this way the DK300 plinth can be a stand in and allow me to play the table while one like this is built. 

https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/how-to-transform-a-past-master-to-an-object-of-desire.1034/

@chakster 

"It’s top quality and heavy plinth, DP-80 is a killer DD, you just need a decent lightweight mat" 

then

" Just respect the aesthetic of Denon, it’s proper engineering from plinth to turntables, tonearms and cartridges."

So how can Denon have proper engineering in all aspects and then not do the mat right? Seem to be contradicting yourself here. 

Eh I will do what works for me on the plinth. You may not care for the aesthetics, but not everyone has to like the same things. You do you. 

Where you’ve been in the 70’s?

Well in the 70s I was between the age of 4 and 14

UM you guys do realize this was a discussion about upper end DD drive units? 

So i guess I do owe folks an update. I decided to pass on the Sony TTS8000 due to reported bearing issues. I was pretty well set on getting a Denon DP80 in a DK300 plinth from Unisound, however I could not get them to package the arm I wanted with it. There is one table with the DK300 plinth a bit damaged on the front veneer but it had the Audiocraft AC3000 on it. The second table has a nice plinth but what looks to be a lower end Denon arm of some sort. I had asked if I could have the AC3000 moved to the other plinth as they both were the same finish, and its a matter of moving arm boards. They declined, and I can understand why, but I thought I would ask. 

In the meantime I decided to take a different tack. On Audiogon there is a  Scheu Analog Das Laufwerk No.2 table for sale in Warsaw, but the shipping costs that were listed in the ad were not horrible. Its also a shop demo so it comes with factory warranty. I hit the buy now button, but am waiting for the seller to put together the shipping cost and arrange payment process, its due to be a wire transfer. They are a 17 year member of Audiogon and verified dealer, so while I am a bit apprehensive, this is a known seller. So the Scheu would be my first choice, but as the ad read shipping was supposed to be $300 USD to the US, and if I am given a number that is significantly different then I am going to end the transaction as that is not what was represented in the ad. I should have a firm number tomorrow, so we will have a resolution soon. 

Option #2 is going to be the DP80 in the DK 300 plinth with the lower Denon arm. The arm will get repurposed for another project, maybe even sold off. Or perhaps put on the sideline for awhile and eventually reunited with the plinth and a different drive unit, if I ever get a custom plinth built for the DP80. i could source something like a DP75 drive unit to make a complete table again and find it a new home. But heck I might just love the DK 300 the way it is, perhaps have it re-veneered and call it good. 

Everything is kind of fluid now, the next few days should see a resolution. 

For the heck of it I picked up an interesting vintage MC to use as a casual cartridge on the Dynavector. Picked up an Ortofon MC200. Has a fine line stylus, boron cantilever, samarium cobalt ring magnet, and Ortofons WRD damping system. Output is low, but the Esoteric E-03 phono stage has enough gain to handle it. I will use if for casual vinyl listening till it wears out and then send it off to a retipper I want to try. Be a good test mule for me to see what i get back. 

Actually I have had a history with these kinds of tables in the past. In the late 90s I ended up being an early adopter of the Teres Audio turntable, and I had a pretty nice one with an Eminent Technology II air bearing tone arm. In a moment of temporary insanity I thought I could be happy with a digital only stereo. Utter foolishness, and I sold my analog stuff. 

About 6 years later I re-entered vinyl, and I did that with a Townshend Rock MK III but it really was not on par with my Teres. I ended up buying a Galibier Serac and was quite happy with it for a number of years even though it was a somewhat homely table. I used a Riggle Engineering 12" Woody arm on it. 

The common thread connecting these two tables is they were designed by Chris Brady and Thom Mackris, who were both founding members of the Teres Project. The table that inspired that project and their initial model was....The Scheu table. So I enjoyed both of those tables immensely, and I really should have kept the Teres. This purchase allows me to reach back to the genesis, to get the TOTL table from the company that inspired them. 

There is an added benefit that this table does not take up a lot of room. I have a credenza that hold my gear, and I have a SOTA Cosmos Eclipse on it and a Well Tempered Reference next to it. The amount of room available for a third table is a bit limited. The Scheu will fit that space, and other tables make everything quite cramped. When I had an Amazon Reference on here I had literally no room between the tables. So this is an added benefit for me. Additionally it can accept another arm board, so if I want to adding a second arm is pretty easy. 

Finding an isolation base for it would be a bit challenging as its somewhat monolithic. Weight is 38 KG, so just shy of 80 pounds. Finding a platform to handle that level of weight might be a bit of a challenge. 

Its getting ready to ship. Coming UPS from Warsaw. So i don't expect to see it for at least a week. Waiting is always the toughest part. 

@chakster 

This is the Ortofon MC200U, which is the 1/2 inch version. They did make one with an integrated head shell. This integrated design also was sold under the Concorde name, and they had a T4P version called the CMC I believe. The one I have looks like the OM body cartridge, but its silver and has a non user replicable stylus. 

This is a cartridge I have owned before. I remember thinking it was respectable but not really a wow moment. But I wanted a cartridge for casual listening to keep the hours off my main cartridge so I grabbed this one again. I installed it on a Zupreme headshell with stock cartridge wires, and while this is probably too much mass for it, its what I had at the time. I think I will order a carbon fiber head shell to use with this cartridge. I got the pleasant but a bit unexciting presentation, and I also had a bit of low level hum. So I swapped in some silver litz cartridge wires I had recently bought, and that did the trick. No noise, and more open presentation. I am enjoying this cartridge, and even as we speak its playing at this moment. The sound is interesting, its somewhat effortless with good flow, a bit fuller than many modern cartridges, but still well detailed but the truth is its not as resolving as my ZYX or Transfiguration. But this cartridge is just meant for casual listening, and one where i will use the hours up and then send it as a trial to a new retipper to see what he is capable of. 

This led me down memory lane and thinking about the vintage moving coils I have liked in the past, and in some ways wish I still had here. I enjoy listening to the Denon 103M which reminds me a lot of the Denon DL304. But the output voltage is .12 mV, and also the Fidelity Research MC202 with an output voltage of .13 mV. These are tough output voltages to work with, but I wonder if the low number of coil windings is what contributes to the wonderful sound of those cartridges. At that time you likely had to use step up transformers. In my case I have an Esoteric E-03 phono stage that can handle those low voltages. I prefer the sound of an active phono stage over a two piece set up using a SUT in the first gain stage. 

The Ortofon MC200 is even worse with an output voltage of .09 mV. But it uses some pretty snazzy technology for a cartridge this age. Boron cantilever, fine line nude (line contact) stylus, samarium cobalt ring magnet, and Ortofons WRD damping system which is still found on their higher level cartridges today.

So all in all its a nice cartridge, and I am getting very good sound and I bought it very inexpensively. 

Vintage cartridges really isn't my thing, nor is owning a couple dozen of them. I only have one system and a limit of three turntables. So I need 4 or 5 cartridges at the most. The MC200 is meant to be a casual listening cartridge as I have a lot of music on vinyl that is not duplicated in my digital collection. Yes I can stream but I find my vinyl sounds better. I paid $105 shipped for the MC200 and I will use up the hours in the diamond and then send it off to a retipper who claims he can replace a diamond on stock cantilever and get factory quality alignment. We will see, this is a good test mule for that. 

The sound is fundamentally different than current Ortofon cartridges. I believe when CD came out manufacturers had a different target for voicing with their new designs. This cartridge comes from the pre CD era so it does present music differently, and its a nice change of pace to have. Perhaps I will acquire another vintage cartridge at some time, I have always wanted to own one of the Kiseki or perhaps a Shinon. 

Actually who knows what the future holds. My system is pretty well done as I have three good tables and I only run one audio system and the gear I got is long term keepers. So maybe i will end up exploring vintage MC cartridges. 

@lewm
I currently use a Transfiguration Audio Proteus and ZYX 4D. Also have an Ikeda Kawami which counts as a classic MC but sounds nothing like one. The Proteus and 4D meet my needs for modern MC and I am content with them. Anything I do now is just for fun, to explore, but for my best sound reproduction I got what I can afford, I dont't have the resources to climb higher. 

I worked for an audio shop during my college years. Late 1980s, in Washington State. We carried the Azden YM series of cartridges. So they were available in the US too. 

So my table shipped on Thursday. If it clears customs in a timely manner I hope to have it next week. 

Search engines are weird, and sometimes we miss information or posts with them. I happened to find this post when using my phone and when using my computer it never comes up in a search. But there is a bit of information that is interesting. I have owned the A90 and there are certain times when listening to acoustic music on this MC200 that I hear a familial sound, and I came up with that observation on my own. So it is interesting to read this post which gives some context on why they sound similar. With that being said, there is no way I am saying this cartridge is an equivalent of an A90.

The following post was from a thread in Vinyl Engine:


"a while ago I bought a needle-less Ortofon MC-200 in order to get it re-tipped.
Unfortunately, one channel was dead. So this one was for the bin.

I decided to dismantle it in order to have a look at the interior of the generator.
What I found there in terms of magnets, pole pieces and needle suspension,
shows - construction wise - a strong resemblance with the visible part of the
the Ortofon A90’s generator.

Ortofon may have stopped the MC-100 / MC-200 line, but it’s generater lives
in the current Cadenza series. (and others, like the BACH series)"

This is the second time I have owned this cartridge, and the first time was pleasant but no wow factor. This time around the phono stage is better suited in dealing with this very low output voltage. When designed I am sure this cartridge was intended to be used with an Ortofon SUT, and perhaps in the future I will acquire one. I am not a huge fan of SUTs and to be honest I typically like the sound I get from a high performance phono stage that can handle low output MC, but the .09 mV is difficult to deal with in any respect.

At the moment its mounted on a Dynavector DV505 arm and LP Gear Zupreme head shell. Its not a high compliance design, with a compliance of 13 dyne but only a recommended tracking force of 1.5 grams. The combination of arm and cartridge works, and while I bought this to be used for casual listening I am pretty tickled that I can get such good sound out of an inexpensive cartridge. With acoustic music it is very realistic, so good that I really cannot find any significant faults, especially on piano music. With pop and rock music it can be a bit too honest, in that the sound can be a touch hard sounding. Not aggressive, or having the top end elevated, but rather very precise and these recordings sound like they could use a bit of warmth, perhaps the right term is a touch sterile. I was listening to 45 RPM club extended mixes last night, and found that to be the case with tracks from Soft Cell, Frankie Goes to Hollywood, Cameo and so forth. Its like the curtain is pulled back and you hear what the mix really sounds like, and there are elements of the song that are exposed and cannot be hidden. On other albums I have the top end can be quite distant, its really recording dependent, so its not an inherent rising top end characteristic of the cartridge. For instance I have an album on from Chic this morning, and the sound is much more rounded and warm, so it really comes down to the mixes.

This is an interesting cartridge. I will use it as my casual one, and its a great one for this task. Truth is its probably better than that role, but I am lucky to be able to use one for a daily driver. I think I will do a bit of research and see which Ortofon SUT will work the best with this cartridge and give it a shot.

@lewm 
This is from the manual on the DV505. 

Horizontal balancing

Main arm is designed to maintain itself always level. But horizontal balancing is still necessary to distribute bearing load evenly and thereby realize best trackability. To achieve this balance, shell and sub weight alone normally suffice. First position sub weight A closest to the fore, or sub weight B at white-color balancing point mark, and then slide sub weight on scaled bar by one notch backward per every 5g added to cartridge weight. (In using any shell other than one supplied, add to or deduct from cartridge weight the difference in weight between these two shells.)

It's a bit confusing, but it essentially references how to set the counterweight on the main arm wand. It does have to be set, and you will see some travel on the primary arm wand in the vertical plane, but it's very limited. If a bearing was not there then why would you have adjustment of that large counterweight? 

In the meantime I have installed the Ikeda 9 Kawami in the Dynavector with a 15 gram headshell. The Dynavector arm is an unusual design, and what I found interesting is that there is a counterweight at the end of the main arm that has to be set in regards to cartridge weight, and then on the shorter arm there is a secondary counterweight that sets tracking force. On the main arm pillar there is a bearing that has a short range of vertical movement, even though the primary arm purpose is to travel in the horizontal range. Why there is a vertical travel with a bearing there I am not sure, but I followed the set up instructions for the cartridge weight and positioned the counterweight appropriately. 

Actually the Ikeda cartridge performed pretty well even though I had read posts where others have said it would not. I am not 100% sure its perfectly dialed in yet, although it tracks darn near everything perfectly. However, on Fleetwood Mac Dreams AP 45 release I have one phrase where I have a touch of sibilance. With the Ortofon MC200 installed I do not have this issue. So I still may have a bit of work to do. I wish there was a published procedure or SOP for setting one of these cartridges up. I imagine set up should work along the lines of a London Decca, so perhaps I will see what I can find out in a search about setting one of those cartridges up. 

The Dynavecotr is an unusual arm, and I wonder about its complicated nature at times. But I cannot argue with the results. I am pleased with the table and arm though. In listening to the Scheu and Dynavector with the Ikeda cartridge installed I am not sure the SOTA with SME V and Transfiguration is really any better. There are slight differences, but all in all the tables basically perform at the same level and have similar presentation. The Ortofon MC200 sounds quite nice and makes for an excellent casual play cartridge. My plan is to pick up a couple of good and modestly priced cartridges and use them in this manner, and then save the ZYX/Ikeda/Transfiguration for more serious listening sessions. 

@lewm 

No worries, I know exactly what you mean since I have set the arm up. It's interesting how the primary arm counterweight loads the horizontal bearing. I guess that degree of travel is a function of the horizontal bearings architecture. It makes sense that this bearing needs to be loaded so it's arc is flat in the horizontal plane, and the magnet assembly ensures that also. 

The Dynavector sure represents some unusual design decisions. But from what I hear it works very well, provides you have an unsuspended table. I guess the new generation Graham, Reed, Triplanar, and whatnot are supposed to be superior, but I have a suspicion it's not by a huge margin. I like what I hear from this arm with the cartridges I use. 

@dover 

Thanks for the description of your procedure, it sounds like pretty conventional set up technics for a standard arm, but they serve a different purpose with the Dynavector. Balancing the primary arm wand on the horizontal bearing makes a lot of sense, and I can see the usefulness of the technique. I will give it a go this weekend, and see if I can tease a bit more performance out of the table. The Dynavector is an excellent arm, it kind of surprises me that its become a forgotten choice for many in the analog world. Of course the latest DV507 is not a cheap arm by any stretch of the imaination, so that will limit its audience. I will say i am in awe of its level of engineering, especially considering its now a vintage arm that supposedly is dated due to its design and materials. Although from what I hear I would not describe it as such. 

@lewm 

So which head shells have you used with the table? I have one OEM Dynavector that is 15 grams, and two LP Gear Zupreme which are 12 gram that I can install. I notice that 2Juki has some Dynavector head shells for the DV 505 and 507 on his site that are also in the 15 gram range. 

To be honest there is nothing meaningful I can fault with tone arm with, from what I hear it comes as close to neutral as I have experienced. I have not had a huge range of arms, but have used the Eminent Technology II, Acos GST 801, Riggle Engineering 12" Woody, Well Tempered Reference, SME V, Technics EPA 250, and SAEC 407N. I owned the Riggle for a long long time, same with the ET II. But the DV505 is a fine arm, and I find it encouraging that it is so versatile with markedly different cartridges. For instance I have used an Ikeda 9 Kawami on it, and an Ortofon MC200, and each one of them have performed remarkably well in this arm. 

Have you ever found out what the material of the arm is made from? It looks like its an aluminum alloy? I am fortunate that mine is in near perfect condition. I have seen examples from Japan that have quite a bit more wear or imperfections to the finish. 

I have to admit that I look at the DV507 and think about acquiring one. I can fit two arms on the Scheu table, and another one might be acquired some time in the future.