Hey Doug, I'm sure you and Paul did quite a bit of experimenting but how many belts did you get from a 3 or 4 oz bottle of etching cream?
Upgrade for users of 1/2" mylar belt
This thread will be of interest to Galibier, Redpoint and Teres belt drive TT owners, or anyone using or thinking of using a drive belt made from 1/2" mylar. The belt material of choice on these tables for several years has been the silver holographic mylar streamers from sources linked on the Teres and Galibier websites. This outperforms everything else we've tried but like anything it's not perfect - and we've now found something better.
One of the silver holographic mylar's assets can also become a liability. That metallic layer, when new, gives the belt exceptional "grip" on the platter and motor capstan. Minimal slippage on transients is one reason the material works so well. Unfortunately, that layer can wear over time, leaving a silvery gray residue and allowing performance to deteriorate. The only solution has been a good cleaning and a new belt. No big deal, but if there was a better or more stable belt Paul and I wanted to find it.
I'll spare you a recounting of our many experiments and jump to the good news: thanks to (yet another) brainstorm by my resident genius/partner, we've developed a belt that both performs better and lasts longer. I've held off posting until we were sure, but after 4 months of steady use Paul’s idea is still working perfectly. The only negative is that making this new belt takes an hour or more of work spread over two days, but to us it's worth the effort.
HOW TO MAKE ONE
1. Cut a length of the silver holographic mylar tape sufficient for your TT, plus 3-4" extra.
2. Remove the silver metallic coating off the backside of the mylar. Paul used an acid etching cream popular with stained glass hobbyists to dissolve the metal - safe, quick and easy (use skin and eye protection).
3. Rinse thoroughly under running water, inspect to make sure you got all the silver off, wipe and hang to dry overnight.
4. Splice as normal to make a TT belt, making sure you tape on the OUTSIDE (which will be smoother than the now bare inside).
5. As always, the best splicing technique is to overlap the ends and cut on a 30-40 degree angle. Apply 1” video splicing tape (*not* tabs) across the belt at the *same* angle and trim away the excess.
WHY IT PERFORMS BETTER
Unlike any plain mylar ribbon you could easily buy, the silver holographic streamer has an ultra fine texture embossed on the back side of the *mylar* during manufacturing (*before* the metallic backing is applied). Once the silver layer is applied you can't see this texture, but that's what diffracts light like a million tiny prisms to produce the shimmery rainbow effect. Stripping the metal backing away exposes this texture, which becomes the contact surface of your new belt.
Paul realized this texture must exist and then hypothesized that using it for the working side of a TT belt might provide more “grip” on the platter rim and motor capstan than either plain mylar (which is extremely smooth) or the metallic backing. He was right. This belt produces more lifelike dynamics, both macro- and micro-, than even a brand new silver holographic belt - which heretofore was the best.
WHY IT LASTS LONGER
Removing the metallic backing exposes bare mylar, which is much sturdier than that fine layer of metal. Under normal use and assuming no accidents, one of these belts should last many, many months, perhaps years, while delivering consistent performance. Ours is going into its fifth month with few visible and no audible signs of wear.
Different motor capstan materials might interact with this belt differently, but I urge anyone with a compatible table to give this a try. Like all our favorite little tweaks, we'd find it hard to go back.
A FEW TIPS
1. Clean any silver/grey residue from your old belt off the motor capstan and platter before mounting the new belt.
2. As many of us have learned, the more inelastic the belt, the more critical motor leveling becomes. That is truer than ever with this new belt. Getting the motor set just right is touchy. Take care that your new belt is riding level in the center of the capstan before you start to play. You don't want it sliding up or down and mangling itself.
3. Motor distancing is also more critical than ever. Since this belt will not slip *or* stretch, tension must be perfect. The right amount is just shy of the tension that would tilt the motor off its feet.
4. Depending on your climate, the belt can build up static potential during use. Not enough to spark, but more than enough to attract airborne dust. I dust the belt's inside with my CF brush after each side before stopping the platter.
5. With this or any belt, always start your platter spinning with a helping push. Just pressing the motor's ON button creates lots of belt-wearing friction as the rapidly spinning motor tries to drag that heavy platter up to speed.
It all sounds like a pain, and it is! But the sonic and longevity results are worth the effort.
Cheers,
Doug
One of the silver holographic mylar's assets can also become a liability. That metallic layer, when new, gives the belt exceptional "grip" on the platter and motor capstan. Minimal slippage on transients is one reason the material works so well. Unfortunately, that layer can wear over time, leaving a silvery gray residue and allowing performance to deteriorate. The only solution has been a good cleaning and a new belt. No big deal, but if there was a better or more stable belt Paul and I wanted to find it.
I'll spare you a recounting of our many experiments and jump to the good news: thanks to (yet another) brainstorm by my resident genius/partner, we've developed a belt that both performs better and lasts longer. I've held off posting until we were sure, but after 4 months of steady use Paul’s idea is still working perfectly. The only negative is that making this new belt takes an hour or more of work spread over two days, but to us it's worth the effort.
HOW TO MAKE ONE
1. Cut a length of the silver holographic mylar tape sufficient for your TT, plus 3-4" extra.
2. Remove the silver metallic coating off the backside of the mylar. Paul used an acid etching cream popular with stained glass hobbyists to dissolve the metal - safe, quick and easy (use skin and eye protection).
3. Rinse thoroughly under running water, inspect to make sure you got all the silver off, wipe and hang to dry overnight.
4. Splice as normal to make a TT belt, making sure you tape on the OUTSIDE (which will be smoother than the now bare inside).
5. As always, the best splicing technique is to overlap the ends and cut on a 30-40 degree angle. Apply 1” video splicing tape (*not* tabs) across the belt at the *same* angle and trim away the excess.
WHY IT PERFORMS BETTER
Unlike any plain mylar ribbon you could easily buy, the silver holographic streamer has an ultra fine texture embossed on the back side of the *mylar* during manufacturing (*before* the metallic backing is applied). Once the silver layer is applied you can't see this texture, but that's what diffracts light like a million tiny prisms to produce the shimmery rainbow effect. Stripping the metal backing away exposes this texture, which becomes the contact surface of your new belt.
Paul realized this texture must exist and then hypothesized that using it for the working side of a TT belt might provide more “grip” on the platter rim and motor capstan than either plain mylar (which is extremely smooth) or the metallic backing. He was right. This belt produces more lifelike dynamics, both macro- and micro-, than even a brand new silver holographic belt - which heretofore was the best.
WHY IT LASTS LONGER
Removing the metallic backing exposes bare mylar, which is much sturdier than that fine layer of metal. Under normal use and assuming no accidents, one of these belts should last many, many months, perhaps years, while delivering consistent performance. Ours is going into its fifth month with few visible and no audible signs of wear.
Different motor capstan materials might interact with this belt differently, but I urge anyone with a compatible table to give this a try. Like all our favorite little tweaks, we'd find it hard to go back.
A FEW TIPS
1. Clean any silver/grey residue from your old belt off the motor capstan and platter before mounting the new belt.
2. As many of us have learned, the more inelastic the belt, the more critical motor leveling becomes. That is truer than ever with this new belt. Getting the motor set just right is touchy. Take care that your new belt is riding level in the center of the capstan before you start to play. You don't want it sliding up or down and mangling itself.
3. Motor distancing is also more critical than ever. Since this belt will not slip *or* stretch, tension must be perfect. The right amount is just shy of the tension that would tilt the motor off its feet.
4. Depending on your climate, the belt can build up static potential during use. Not enough to spark, but more than enough to attract airborne dust. I dust the belt's inside with my CF brush after each side before stopping the platter.
5. With this or any belt, always start your platter spinning with a helping push. Just pressing the motor's ON button creates lots of belt-wearing friction as the rapidly spinning motor tries to drag that heavy platter up to speed.
It all sounds like a pain, and it is! But the sonic and longevity results are worth the effort.
Cheers,
Doug
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Ducatrider, I'll have to ask Paul if he remembers the concentration. He used up the last he had, so we'll be sourcing some too. Steve, Good tip re: the bearing. Ours is about due for a check. We did try the Verus last summer. We were still using the silver holographic belt then, but even so the Verus was not an upgrade on our rig. It could not compete with our modified Ref II motor, modified controller and the faster/stronger battery we use vs. the Teres standard. It would be even less competitive against this new belt, which gives more raw 'oomph', the one area where the Verus did have a small advantage. Our listening sensitivities and priorities may differ from yours, so keep our experience in context. The Verus's speed controller is adjusted in fixed steps, and no setting yielded exactly 33 1/3. The deviation is too small for most people to notice or care about (and it varies depending on platter diameter), but we both have very good pitch, so we could tell it was running fast or slow. Chris has since halved the size of those steps, so it would be better now. Also the rubber O-ring was a source of resonance rebound or elastic response to stylus drag events. Again, this was at a level many people don't care about. If we were rock or even regular classical listeners we might not notice. But much of our favorite music is pre-Romantic era on authentic instruments. These recordings are unforgiving (ie, revealing) of even the tiniest system problems. The instruments go from unique and rich timbres to fingernails-on-blackboard in a heartbeat if ANYTHING is wrong. They're a real acid test which we listen to almost daily, but which most people never listen to at all. The Verus is well liked by most who try it, but its not for everyone. YMMV, as usual. |
Hey Doug. This sounds like a worthwhile tweak. I'll try to source some etching cream and give it a go. One of the reasons I'm a believer is because of what I've observed with my Teres 145 when replacing a worn belt with a new one is just what you report. Improved dynamics. A more immediate sense of musical flow. I wasn't aware of the layered construction of the holographic mylar but this makes sense. Another maintenance tip I'd add centers around the bearing thrust pad. A new thrust pad, say on at least an annual cycle, will restore some sonic performance for these turntables. Btw, you didn't go with a Verus upgrade? -Steve |
I've read some good reports about various kinds of thread, string, fishing line, dental floss, etc. I also remember one VPI owner who modified his table to accommodate a wider belt, used 1/4" wide mylar and reported good results. The difficulty in implementing this kind of belt on a VPI (correct me if I'm wrong) is that the motor capstan and/or platter rim are grooved for a fairly narrow belt. This limits your material choices to whatever will fit, unless you modify your table. If your platter rim is flat, getting a local machine shop to make you a taller motor capstan might be viable. For a 1/2" belt you need a capstan working surface height of about 9/16" to 19/32", very slightly convex and with lips at top and bottom to stop the belt riding off. The O.D.at the center would be the same as your existing capstan, obviously. Material choice probably isn't super-critical, but the surface should not be highly polished. The key characteristics in a good belt material are: 1. Lack of elasticity. The more resistant the material is to stretching and rebound the better. Rubber is terrible (sorry). Mylar is dimensionally very stable. At the speeds and loads experienced by a TT belt it wouldn't be far wrong to call it "perfectly" stable, depending on the thickness. 2. Lack of "slipperiness", ie, sufficient friction to prevent slippage when a big transient tries to slow the platter. This is tricky to get right. The biggest risk of slippage is at the very short belt/capstan interface. The belt/platter interface is long enough to make slippage less likely there. The optimum material is very much table dependent. On a Teres motor capstan materials like string, thread, etc. result in quite audible slippage, though they're still better than anything elastic. Mylar will also slip if it's too thick and/or too smooth to make the curve around the capstan, and that's a function of your capstan diameter, material and surface. Not much of an answer, sorry. But I encourage you to experiment. It can't hurt and you'll certainly learn something from everything you try, as we have. |
Dan, I only wear my HazMat suit for posting on public forums. Acid etching is benign by comparison! Mothra, Thanks for the report. If you get your cartridge set up just right (especially VTF and antiskate), you may also hear an increase in microdynamics, sound space info and very low level harmonic detail. |
Hi, I have tried doug's belt for a few days now on my Galibier gavia. I can hear the benefits of this vs the mylar belt i was using before. The speed stays on better, I believe as there is a tighter feeling in the bass without losing bass. I will have to continue listening, but I would reccomend this belt to anyone including the designers of these tables. Now if we can just get Doug to go into the belt making business... |
Whut?!? No cryo treatment? BTW, I did find an etching cream that does not use some real bad stuff. A bit more expensive, but the add says it can be reused. Second row of product. etch all |
Doug, I'm going to send my 100' roll of mylar down to you so you and Paul will have something to do in your spare time. I can see clotheslines strung all around the living room and kitchen. ;-) I find this fascinating since I've thrown out a few belts after the silver has worn down. Now I find out that I should have kept them and cleaned more of the stuff off. So, where can one source the etching cream? Thanks again for sharing your tweaks! EDIT: a Google search will quickly show sources for the etching cream. |
Piedpiper, One of our reasons for trying this experiment was to eliminate the residues left by the silver holographic belt. Beeswax would just replace one residue with another, and would certainly be a magnet for any dust attracted by the belt. It doesn't seem likely that any treatment like that would provide stable performance over the long term (nor, to be honest, would I want it on my platter). Joe, Good to see you. That's still the niftiest arm mount for a Rega/OL style arm I've ever seen. I remember we once discussed belt dressing (as used in car engines) and you warned me away. Piedpiper's idea might be less messy, but a clean interface is best. Peter, There are two sources on the Galibier website, one of them's on the Teres site too. Enjoy. ALL, Anyone who tries this, please report your results. We're always curious... Doug |
You know Doug, I always keep an eye out for the things you and Paul come up with even if I don't post for a long time. And this is one of the things I watch for. Thanks buddy, for a relatively easy way to get better performance out of my TT. i wish I had Paul's ears, and his out of the box thinking. I'll let you know how it works on mine. Thanks again! |