My own observations tell me,that the more common posters on this forum are quite credible.Based from "following" their posts for a long enough time,to realise they know a little about good sound.How to help the masses to get there,if so inclined.
Best |
OK. I'm suggesting a fun experiment. Get together a group of audiophiles and ply them with some beer. Hand everybody a pad and paper. Put up a clock with a second hand. Play the Holst or the Firebird and ask everybody, without copying one another, to write down the time at which they think the stylus has hit the magical spots. Put a piece of cardboard in front of the turntable, so that you cannot see the tonearm from the listening positions. Collect the times, play the record, and this time watch the tonearm and note when it actually does hit the magical spots (or at least comes close to them). Please report back, including what audiophile beer was used. Intended for fun and science. Jeff |
How would you measure tracking angle from the output signal? Or what does tracking angle distortion sound like? |
Cjfrbw,your post definitely smacks of condescending accusations....I think-:)
I'm going to assume you don't mean it,that way...but for the record,as it applies to my experience at a friend's home(who has a superb rig),I and others,have heard the differences between numerous component changes,"around the linear arm",as well as quite a few different "other" arms,and cartridges.Other component changes too.
The "jury",of other 'philes who've heard the system(over the years)absolutely concur with my "opinion".As it relates to "this" arm subject!
The truth is that my friend(and quite a few of "his" pals,whom I know quite well)are "raving fanatics",in the BEST sense!!Meaning not much....."except" that they are in the habit of A/B'ing the things that interest them.They do it alot.
There has been extensive A/B comparisons(at his home) of too many components to mention,but the "one" thing that is a fact "was" the consistant superiority of "that" linear/air bearing arm!...I have no ax to grind,on the subject(and I appologize if you did not mean to be provacative).
One reason I know this about the arm's superiority,is because it's NOT there anymore!...Everyone knows the missing ingredient,when "now" exposed to the "well it just happens to be a damn good system",but not as good as before!
Fortunately,there are more variables to good sound,so it still sounds superb...but NOT the same!
As to my own approach in posting "opinions"...I personally don't like to "word my impressions of musical satisfaction" through my own system,because I just think it a little too easy to infer how satisfied one is,with their own choices(sort of obvious,if you've slaved over a good set-up,and spent serious moola).
That doesn't mean I am anything less than extremely satisfied with the sound,but I believe one loses a little cred if they wax too much about how great their stuff is!
It also doesn't mean folks should not do it!!Many have been at this a long time,and spent a small fortune on the hobby.If they want to be enthusiastic,good for them.
In my case..if I mention that I believe something is "better",it's because it happens to "sound that way"...to ME!
Btw,my "opinion" regarding 12 vs 9.5 inch arms vs linear/air bearing.....
To me,the 12 vs 9.5 inch sonic differences,are a yawn compared to the difference between a really superb linear/air bearing,as it compares to the 12....
Just my opinion.
Best
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Well, my system is quite resolving, and in no way, shape or form can I hear the sound staging on my best record wander into a noticeable superior presentation around the tangency points and out again. I would imagine that there is a threshold effect that requires substantial distortion to begin hearing the difference to begin with, which would be significantly away from the tangent points, and to believe that you can hear the gradual transition as a continuum with the actual point creating a "snap" is really handing it to yourself and your friends.
Sorry, but no "snap" here. I guess I just have retarded hearing. |
Here's a minor "listening exercise" with a pivoted arm in a highly resolving system with excellent soundstaging... Pull out a record that can demonstrate excellent soundstaging (such as the Holst "Savitri" on Argo ZNF 6 or the Stravinsky "Firebird" on Mercury SR 90226 just to name two examples), listen to the overall sonic window as the arm tracks across that perfect tangency point.
In my listening experience (and that of some fellow listening companions), with a pivoted arm, as the stylus tracks across that perfect tangency point the soundstage snaps into sharper focus, everything is suddenly more sharply and clearly defined, more "solid" in presentation. Then, as the stylus moves past this point, the presentation shifts, ever so slightly, to be less solid and less definitive.
Is this a major shift? No. Do most people notice it? No. But once you become acclimated to the results delivered by a well set up Air Tangent, Rockport or Walker linear arm, the phenomenon is more readily noticed. (The Eminent Technology II arm delivers this soundstaging result as well, as I assume would the Kuzma linear arm. The B&O definitely did not as it crab walked across the vinyl.) And, I don't hear it in all pivoted arm systems, only in those where the entire reproduction chain is sufficiently resolving for the shift to be more apparent.
This is part of the experience of linear tracking arms to which Sirspeedy and Mikelavigne refer. That magical moment when everything snaps into focus on a pivoted arm is what a linear tracking arm is delivering across the entire playing surface of the LP.
Try listening for this the next time you have an opportunity with a superb pivoted arm based system playing back a superbly recorded LP with excellent soundstage reproduction.
OTOH, soundstaging is not something that pushes everyone's buttons. It does mine, but it just may not be important for others. In that case, enjoy not having one more parameter of sound reproduction to mess about with.
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Well, I have never come across an article or study which has compared an actual pivot arm with a linear tracker with a given cartridge and how they would measure on a test record compared to each other in a lab setting. This might not be the perfect guide as far as audible performance is concerned, but it would be interesting. If somebody knows of such a study, it would be nice to post it. I wouldn't necessarily regard it is a determinant of final listening quality, but it would be interesting to read. I would imagine that there is an averaging effect based on torsional flexibility in the cartridge stylus/suspension that applies to both tangency and variable azimuth that might make differences between geometries somewhat moot. It seems that theories assume that the cartridge itself is perfectly rigid and the stylus/suspension/generator assembly is always perfect and that you can tell what it is by examining the cartridge housing. This seems to be a very flawed assumption.
The usual caveats about testimonials tend to apply
1. It's better because it's mine
2. It's better, because my buddy has an extreme system and it always sounds good to me, therefore this one thing in his system means it is better than anything else.
3. I have audiophile hearing, so I can actually filter out the effects of systems, cartridges, setups, speakers, preamps, etc. etc. to make reliable judgments about specific elements in the chain, and I can also make judgments based on audiophile memory, even if all of these chain elements are different.
Everybody seems to do this, including me, but it again makes me very skeptical that you can hear arm geometries in the very specific way that a lot of audiophiles and audio critics claim. |
Now how about the Schroder, Graham, Breuer or Yorke ? Are these competitive with the ET II, Clearaudio TQ-1,Goldmund and perhaps further up the Linear chain? I've heard the top line Clearaudio, ET 2 and a Schroder at RMAF. Have not had one of these at home yet to audition. Would apprecite a chime in of any past or present owners of these wonderful arms. |
I even prefer my more modest linear tracking setup (LT-30 w/ zyx cart) than the Linn LP-12 I used before it. Setup is far easier and get a much more enjoyable sound. It's all there, detail, bass, sound staging, imaging and very intmate vocals. I can't imagine moving from the linear camp. |
Personally I never went into my friend's home(the Air Tangent guy....Btw,his pump was highly modified,and the bass was amazingly good/deep/powerful...in case someone decides to "go on" about air bearings hurting bass)thinking about the business of "tangency" as it compares to a pivot,and "leaning" towards "wanting" to hear his set-up in "any" specific way!...
Or anything else,other than simply enjoying the plethora of amazing LP's he always surprises me with(an understatement).
I could care less about the technical aspects of the hobby(to a point)as it is with experience,and the "you just know it",from "that" experience which drives my own approach.....So,technically I am a little above clueless-:)
One thing I "DO" know is....a superb linear/air bearing arm(a "really" good one)just "lets" a great set-up "open into a listening room better"(to me)than anything else,which happens to be attached to the cartridge!....
Nothing too technical.Just simple,repeatable observations.Alot of 'em!
Yes,I definitely think that the issue of "resonant characteristics" is at play here(to whatever degree)....
The lack of any hard contact points(within the bearing),which is a bone of contention to me....This just "has to have some sonic signature"(whether unipivot,or fixed pivot)that is affecting the "flow of musical info",on a pivot of "any" type!!No matter how exotic the bearing material is....I definitely am theorizing here,but DO believe it,as one aspect/benefit of air bearing greatness.
That is "not" to say one cannot get "superb" performance from such designs,and "definitely" the "minutiae" of set up will definitely yield the "magic" we look for.....Btw,from what I have seen,many are all to easily fooled,because it is way to easy to get "good" as opposed to "great" sound.So they stop fotzing around with set up a little sooner than the "fanatics" do....
This I can understand,because of the "pain in the tush factor",with setting up to the "N'th" degree....I have been known to wear my tennis sweatbands during set ups,and I'm damn tired of it,to be honest.One reason why I "now" charge my friends two/five glasses of really good wine,for my setup services -:)
BUT, my ears tell me music is "more organic,more right" with a great air/linear design....Whether I am "thinking about" concentrating on the equipment in front of me,or not!...
For me,it's just the way it is!!
Best |
The linear tracking arm is without doubt a better setup than any pivoting arm, but the friction of the arm when it travels has to be reduced to near zero. Most linear tracking arms use an air bearing which is complex and delicate, and the air compressor is noisy.
There is, however, another approach which is used by my Sony PS X800 turntable. The arm is moved by a servo motor, just like the arm which carried the cutting head when the recording was made. The movement speed is biased to match nominal groove spacing, and then that speed is varied to match the actual groove spacing as measured by any angle of the arm. The arm is not fixed perpendicular to the track, but can pivot slightly: the servo moves the pivot point. The servo is well designed and does not exhibit any of the problems that some folk fear (hunting, oscillation, etc). Tracking error is maintained at less than 0.05 degree. Note that the servo approach is equivalent to a completely frictionless bearing. There is no sideforce on the stylus...not even the tiny force needed to move an arm with an air bearing. |
Cjfrbw,
you make some very good points. why a particular product sounds the way it does is always complicated. how would one elimiate all differencs between any two designs other than a pivot and linear tracking. the answer is not likely to ever occur. so you could never get to a point where you have sufficently isolated the issues to use DBT to prove it. even then, i don't personally believe DBT proves better....at best proves differences were proved to a particular person under specific conditions at a particular moment.
so we are left to assign characterisitics based on experience.....imperfect as that might be.
my personal perceptions about linear tracking on my tt may be as much as result of the eddy current direct drive motor, and the air bearing on that motor and the 60 pound platter. it may be the vaccuum hold down, or the 250 pound plinth. it may simply be the quality of build, and not linear tracking.
my opinion is that when you do go to the trouble to do 100% of all the things that can be done to make a tt perform optimally; one of those things is linear tracking. |
I would have to concur with Cjfrbw, I've played around with the RS-3 rotary headshell vs a standard fixed headshell and from just casual listening, I cannot say that I can hear a difference in terms of tracking error distortion. But this is only from a casual 45min session when I first got the unit. I can say that I did not take any step backwards either. I hope to spend more time with it in the future. It is a new toy that has no instructions, so it will be trial and error to learn more about this rotary headshell. |
Linear trackers are based on the theory that tangency is the most important feature of the arm and that the linear tracking arm perfectly mimics the geometry of the cutting head of the master, whereas pivoted arms inherently display tracking distortion. However, the cutting head of the master is applying great force with a blade while a linear tracking tonearm is "dragging" the whole arm assembly across the record with a few grams of down force, quite a different situation. You could say that linear trackers are triumph of execution over practicality if they are done correctly.
I spent some time playing with one of John Elison's spreadsheets from vinyl asylum, plugging in values for tracking error for pivoted arms. I find it difficult to believe that a properly set up pivoted arm, even a 9 inch arm, has enough error to significantly "hear" the tracking error unless the arm is not set up correctly. I tend to think the audiophile imagination "knows" there is some tracking error and runs rampant to fill in the blanks to believe that 12 inch arm and linear trackers are audibly superior "because" of the geometry advantages. If somebody states they can "hear" the superior qualities of a linear tracker vs. a properly set up pivoted arm, I would be very skeptical.
I tend to believe that if linear trackers and 12 inchers sound better, it would be for reasons other than the geometry, either superior overall execution of the arm or better cartridge matching or higher effective mass etc. It is hard for me to believe that the "fumble factor" involved in a linear tracker would make it a better choice in every instance. The linear tracker seems to have many design disadvantages and pitfalls compared to a good pivoted arm. I hate to invoke the dreaded DBT, but that is one that I would like to see the results of. |
Great responses by all above. Of course it's important to note they're all talking about arms that cost far more than most pivoted arms (more than most complete vinyl rigs actually).
I haven't had the pleasure of working with a top level linear tracker, but I did own two of those Rabcos back in the day. Even those, crude as they were, were ridiculously easy to set up. Sonically they were at least the equal of similarly priced pivoting arms I had. Unlike everyone else on the planet, I never had a lick of trouble with either of them. I still have the ST-8 and it works fine.
My (pivoting) TriPlanar arm costs more than those Rabcos, the tables they were mounted on and all the cartridges I ever used with them put together. Is it better? Well, of course. In fact it's phenomenally better since, as noted above, any arm requires good execution and setup. But even with this marvelously adjustable device and plenty of experience, I can't dial in a strange cartridge in much less than 25 minutes, and a really good setup takes longer.
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i must agree with Sirspeedy when he says... Yet,and yet....IMO,once you hear a "superb system" that employs an "elite" linear tracking arm(preferrably air bearing)the experience is akin to "what is assumed" regarding being exposed to something like crack cocaine.
YOU ARE INSTANTLY HOOKED!!(also assuming you have been listening to LP's for a really long time,and know "their" signatures)
From my experiences,and taking my way of listening "into" a great set-up(which my friend "has" in spades),the linear/air bearing arm is simply an amazing instrument! it's not right to label my system as 'superb'.....that is for others to say.....but i could not describe the emotional reaction i get to my Rockport Sirius III with an air bearing linear tracking arm better than 'the Speedy one' has done. there is a fundamental 'grounding' of the music; if you take the advantages of a 12" arm over a standard length.....and increase that effect by a few (many?) degrees. it is difficult to separate my particular arm from the whole of my particular tt, as it has been designed as a whole system. Rockport did make a couple of linear tracking arms which could be purchased separately, the 6000 and 7000; but they are not at the level of the Sirius 3 arm. linear tracking arms come in many different levels and degrees of quality. you will find many opinions on their relative performance. early ones were driven by motors, the arm would 'crab' across the record. some non-air bearing linear tracking arms have trouble with keeping the rail properly clean and are particularly troublesome to keep optimal. it's is said by some that air bearing linear tracking arms are bass-shy due to the lack of a direct contact hard bearing. again; it is a matter of execution. no one who has heard bass from the Rockport in my room would say that. i cannot speak to other linear tracking arms regarding the need for maintenance or tweaking. my arm is amazingly self sufficient; i can switch a cartridge in about 15 minutes including dynamically adjusting VTA. there is a groove in the platter which makes overhang a snap.....just line it up. once set it 'never' needs adjusting. when i'm in the mood i can easily adjust VTA for each record thickness, takes 5 seconds. my compressor (upstairs in the attic) has never needed any attention. at the top of the food chain a pivoting arm and linear tracking arm are both great choices. there are many more great pivoting arm choices. if you get the right linear tracking arm and it's optimized for your turntable; it is very easy to live with. but that's not cheap and there are not many choices. added note; regarding which is easier to set up. i have not seen an arm easier to set up than mine. the reason is that there are simply less varibles. you have no overhang question, no real azimuth question (in theory you do but not really). no anti-skating. the only issues are VTF and VTA. VTF is simple. i set VTA by ear dynamically; listen for 5 minutes, make minor adjustment and i'm done. there is fluid filled trough for resonance control but it needs no attention at all.....the record is always perfectly flat and the isolation of this tt is pretty good. all the pivoting arms i have used require about 4 times the effort to get you pretty close; then a few hours of small tweaking to get things right. |
Spl, are you asking about Unipivots or pivoted arms in general? Assuming the latter...
I have to admit being in the camp of true believers around linear tracking arms. I largely agree with Sirspeedy about the magic they can deliver if properly designed, executed and set up, and I've always used a linear tracking arm in my own system. At the same time, I've heard linear arms that easily are outperformed by any number of pivoted arms (anyone remember the Rabco linear?)
Over the years, my listening with well setup pivoted arms convinces me that "it's all in the execution." The sound quality from any of the top arms, whether pivoted or linear, can be stunning when properly set up, and the sound can be indifferent to atrocious when care and attention has not been given. As always, the magic is in the details (as Lloyd Walker is fond of pointing out).
As to setup, linear tracking arms do eliminate having to make a choice about tangency -- its either exactly correct along the entire tracking line or it's exactly wrong everywhere. A pivoted arms will always be correct in at least two points across the record, even if always off everywhere other than those two points. :-) I wouldn't say that either is easier to set up correctly than the other.
We moved a year or so ago, and I had to transport and then re-assemble my Walker Proscenium turntable with its linear tracking arm. I easily spent 10 hours over severaly days finetuning the setup of the arm and cartridge until I was satisfied. (Lloyd and Fred can do it in an hour or so.) I suspect I would have spent the same time with a Graham or Triplanar or VPI or Scheu.
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Btw,forgot to mention,the "pivoting arm" I alude to IS a unipivot!
Sorry for not being more specific |
Spl,I can tell you that, "without a doubt", a "very good" linear tracking/air bearing arm is going to allow a "musical presentation" unlike "any" alternative design type!!
I have extensive A/B comparative experience on this subject(with a half dozen different cartridges)as a dear friend(who's set-up I know probably as well as my own) had moved from a highly modified Air Tangent,to a 12.6 pivoting design.
In all honesty,originally I was shocked at the total loss of that "nice cushion of relaxed ambient pleasure" (the only way I can relate the signature sound,and it is still an incomplete description)when the move was made from air/linear to unipivot,but there has been a significant improvement in the pivot's set up,and the gap has closed more-so than I would have thought(to be fair and honest).....
Yet,and yet....IMO,once you hear a "superb system" that employs an "elite" linear tracking arm(preferrably air bearing)the experience is akin to "what is assumed" regarding being exposed to something like crack cocaine...
YOU ARE INSTANTLY HOOKED!!(also assuming you have been listening to LP's for a really long time,and know "their" signatures)
From my experiences,and taking my way of listening "into" a great set-up(which my friend "has" in spades),the linear/air bearing arm is simply an amazing instrument!
I envy those folks who have made the commitment to own,and operate one....The really good ones,are "that" amazing!!...."to me".
As far as maintenance/set-up goes...the pivot is a breeze,but the air bearing/linear arm required some maintenance consideration(the actual set-up was not too hard).This is mostly to keep the pump operating properly,and allow for there to be no build-up of moisture on the bearing.
Of course,there are more additional component parts to consider but once you become familiar with this,it's pretty easy to just "fall into a good listening session".The reason for having it in the first place!
Btw,I have absolutely no gripes regarding "many" of the pivoting designs(I have one myself),and you seem to have made a good choice,from reputation....
The only reason my friend moved on was he is getting a bit long in the tooth,and was hurting his wrists when doing some of the "infrequent" pump/component maintenance....He has his own very close-knit group of 12.6 arm fans,and they influenced him to make the change.
Actually, he is quite happy,as he should be....There are SO many unique ways to voice a system that, at least to me,it's really nice to hear all of different musical presentations,that each seperate hobbyist has gotten from his own take on a good rig!...The real reason I like to follow these threads.
Best of luck |
