GHaas,
Since you're using a pre-pro with ARC, you might want to consider a pair of the Rythmik F25s that I mentioned earlier, and linked here:
http://www.rythmikaudio.com/F25.html
A pair of these will provide MASSIVE clean output capability for a room your size and even at <$3K for the pair, they might well be everything you want. If they are not, the F25s are sold on a money-back, in-home trial basis.
Good Luck,
Marty |
The most important consideration for getting excellent bass response and performance from your system is to make absolutely sure that your sub is both placed properly in the room - in relation to your seating positions - and that it is both integrated correctly at the critical crossover reigion (speakers/sub relationship @ seating location). All that, and that the sub is EQ'd out for any issues within your room/setup. The vast majority of people setting up speaker systems fail to properly address and integrate the sub and speakers into the room, in relation to good seating positions, at the expense of good solid, high fidelity performance from the system!
I have sold just about every 15" and 18" "super sub" out there, and have heard most of em installed improperly as well...yeilding less than stelar results, accordingly.
I have also seen very expensive subwoofer setups in multiples, where they canceled each other out at their respective lower frequency ranges, due to phase cancelation issues. You sit closer to one sub than the other in a given seating arrangement, and you have combfiltering problems, and weak bass, holes, etc. Of course, let's not forget eq'ing out the huge humps, and avoiding acoustical holes in the bass response, as your typical rookie mistakes to fall into. Flat accurate, well integrated and coherent, impactful, fast bass response is the goal, for certain.
You simply MUST take care, and learn to set the subs up properly, measure response,take into consideration seating in relation to speaker/sub placement, etc, if you wish to get great performance from your bass! If you don't, you might as well get lesser equipment, and just learn to set it up well, cause you're wasting your money!! That's my experience.
I once helped a guy set up a system, where he had a large $5k M&K MX5000 and large 15" Earthquake subwoofer set up in the system. From most of the seating locations, the subs were set up so they were out of phase with each other, and canceling out all the bass impact! Very common, and easy to fall into this problem, without knowing what you're doing.
When people tell me they're using multiple subs, my doubts immediately kick in on how well their system will actually play out. More often than not, they don't know they have issues, and start making assumption about the quality of the pieces, rather than actual USER ERROR that's really the culprit.
I think most people really would do better in trying to integrate one well placed sub, and getting an auto EQ (Audyssey, etc) into the equation. Then they'll likely end up with better results, more often than not. FYI
In response to your question, you may just find you'll get better results - if by accident, if nothing else - with two JL subs, than perhaps the 15" Velo. Then again, you could very well likely have nowhere near as good results, depending on how lucky you get, or how well you end up integrating the multiples into the system.
Just don't fall into the trap that many who post reponses on this forum, regarding their experience with gear in their system/setups, on how good or bad some product they tried actually is! There's often user error that's not being considered, is all I'm sayin. In the end, all you can do is try for yourself and see what results you get.
Great thing about the used market is that you can trade with low risk..even sell what you don't end up using.
Good luck |
I own a DD18+, but my system is solely for music. I'm impressed with the DD18+, it has remarkable output, and even in my very large space a single DD18+ is startling on organ, special effects, and synthesizers than get below 40Hz. The new DD Plus series is an entirely different animal than your previous generation DD15.
I auditioned the JL 212 twice. For home theater use the 212 might be a little better. I think it has more absolute output below 30Hz than the DD18+, but I don't have measurements to prove it. They sound "big". The 212 was actually my first choice when I was shopping, but I never heard it blend in for music as well as the Velodyne did, so I got a Velodyne. (I actually auditioned a DD15+, but the DD18+ is nearly identical with more output.) Also, the high-pass filter on the DD18+ saved me the expense of a crossover like the Bryston or a new digital pre-amp with bass management (like a Classe), and that's not a consideration for you with a D2v.
Nonetheless, I can't imagine you'd be dissatisfied with either choice. |
I think 2 F113s is more than enough for your room. |
Perhaps as all exterior walls are concrete has something to do
with it,or perhaps those subs were partialy defective(don't know)I use to have them up at 2-3:00 on the dial after using the ARO,plus even placing them where I sat and then put them where they sounded best(all a no go).
I hear guys having there JL's at 9:00 or perhaps a bit higher.
Anyway the Velo hits me where it sounds and feels great,
so I'm good,music is such a joy now with this sub. |
I have two F113's that fill a 18x30x10 room that opens into a dining room and office/den that is about the same size. I could not imagine needing to add anymore. For example in the movie Monster's Inc when the giant bird crosses the street, it actually feels as if the bird walks right by the couch and then behind you. When it takes the fist step I feel as if the couch is raising off the floor. I use this Movie scene and a few scenes from U-571 to show friends what these subs a capable of and always get the WOW factor out of them. The strength of the JL's are speed, acurracy and flat out image like crazy. Two F212's would just add that much more excitement and possibly be a little more musical. |
I went with four JL's(113's)two for music and two for HT.
they were a big upgrade compared to the DD-15's I had.
When I got to hear the 1812 in a big room I was shocked how good she sounded.
I thought,no way could I get this sound in my room.
To my total surprise and amazement,the 1812 gave me that sound
I've been looking for,superb midbass punch and she digs real deep.
I FORGOT ONE IMPORTANT THING:THE ROOM(s)
thinking I was loading 228sqft(listening area)I tried everything with the JL's,no go.
What I didn't realize is there is a room to the right,small hallway,stairwell and to other rooms.
In reality the Jl's were trying to load around 1240-1300sqft.
The 1812 gives me all the musicality and HT thrills I could want,plus the lifetime warranty the dealer gave me.
I'm sure Gotham twoX213's would load that size of room.
I got a great deal on the 1812 and it was the sound I get out of her that sold me.
Couldn't audition the Gotham's here as I had bought the F-113's on here.
Totally satisfied with the bottom end now,took a few subs to get here though. |
Drummermitchell, I thought you went with 3 or 4 of the JL Audio F113's? I personally demoed the JL's and Velo's and came away with 2 F113's. Both are great subs and if anything I just felt that the JL's were a bit faster overall. For HT demo we did some gunshots ( Matrix) which really shined on the JL's. For music DD18's went a bit lower but overall musicality I still thought the JL's were better. Gotham 213's are in a differnt league over the 1812's. F212's were not present but I would guess that two F212's would be much better than two DD18's. |
I'd drive down to the dealer and listen to the 2 subs and then the 1812.
I wanted flexibility with two also,so I'd have a nice blanket of bottom end for the music.Which I got, but I swear nothing I've heard comes close to the 1812 Ive mentioned even with two subs.
No matter where I sit in my room I get that midbass punch,
It's so addictive,and mids and highs are so clean.
Too bad you can't do a weekend drive.
If I had to drive further South(another three hours)to get the sound that's killer,I would,but that's me.
I guess I really strive for the best sound I can get,fianlly
after 6 subs and half dozen years I can rest now as my sub hunt is over.
Hopefully you can do the audition. |
I did have a dealer tell me they were going to sale their 1812 demo for $5,000 which is a great deal but stated the flexability of two smaller subs for my application might be best. If it wasn't so far to audition I would like to here the 1812, but would unlikely purchase two. |
For what it's worth, I followed Mitchell going from the DD 15's to the JL Audio F113's in previous discussions. I consider him true to actual performance over brand loyalty and I trust his evaluation.
I EQ'd my sub before running my Pioneer SC-07 receivers room correction and then did a slight manual adjustment. |
My anthem statement D2v has the ARC equalization system, which many think is the best on the market. Would this be enough? Would I also be able to utilize the DD15 equalization system I already have? I am getting the sense that many are suggesting they are both great choices with the majority leaning toward the JL F212s if they can be integrated and equalized well. If however the equalization process is not utilized the built in system with the velodyne would be better and also an excellent choice. |
Clean output capability and damping control would be my top priority, were I in your shoes.
I suspect that either of your options will be great in your modestly large room (on that basis), so you probably can't go wrong, but...
If you don't have Audyssey or equivalent, then I'd add stand-alone Room EQ (at least for the subs), if you choose the JL. SVS sells a bass-only version for the sub signal - under $1K and, judging from my experience with the similar Velo SMS-1, a critical component of good sub performance.
The Velo DD series includes an excellent version of this approach, and I'd choose it over the JL (which includes a more rudimentary version) on that basis, but....if you already have the capability in your Pre-Pro/AVR, I'd probably go JL.
You might want to look at some other options, as well. A pair of the big Rythmik dual driver subs (F25) will be far less expensive and (based on my experience with their smaller subs) probably still provide top notch perforance. SVS also makes a highly regarded product that's a lot less expensive than the big JL or Velos.
Good Luck
Marty |
That's a bit of a drive(one way)
whichever sub you choose hopefully she's the one as getting two gets pricey.
I went thru six subs and been looking for that live bottom end
sound(my dealer also)15's18's,and some W bins.
when I heard the 1812 in his huge room,I was literally blown away.
Mine is alot smaller and I figured,I could never get this sound in my room.
My dealer said,it doesn't matter the size of room.
We'll he proved it,I get the same sound in my 12X19 as he got in his 16X40X12 room,I couldn't believe it.
He brought it up for a in home audition and I wasn't committed to purchase.I guess he was sure that I'd like it.
The wifey made him dinner and I offered to help on his gas for the drive up.
Anyway I get all the lowend theatre I want,plus the midbass Punch for music,this is bottomend you feel up your backside
and doesn't interfere with what's going on above it.
Totally satisfied musically now,wish you could audition up here. |
I have a local family owned electronics business that can get velodyne or JL at a decent price, but they don't stock any of them. I would have to travel likely five hours one way to attempt to find a demo. The two places I have dealt with before neither have any of these subs in stock to demo. Thats in both Portland Oregon and Seattle Washington. |
If your dealer is close buy and he wants a sale,he should let you do a home audition especially if your dishing out lots of coin.
Been thru that a few times,if they don't I'd go somewhere else.
I'm a 3hr drive to a nearest dealer an hour and a half each way.Don't mind the drive if I can get what I want. |
Both, I utilize as home theater and listening room. One of my dilemas presently is finding a place to audition these subs. |
Exactly what is your sonic goal? Home theater with massive bass effect impact, music only with seamless low frequency integration, or both?
If you have the room and don't mind a large enclosure the ultimate and possibly most economical is a 400w ServoDrive bin which could easily be powered by a modest pro amp such as a fan less Crest or QSC, EQ'd using the Velodyne SMS.
I rented the small 2-18 for an outdoor gig, brought it home for a day and used my DD 18 for the EQ HT signal. Nothing on the consumer market even comes close to the low frequency energy the ServoDrive has on tap.
Mitchell has been around the block and I couldn't agree more. IMO, regardless of what brands you check out the Velodyne EQ, whether in the stand alone SMS or in their powered systems, is the easiest and possibly the best consumer method to EQ and integrate low frequency into a listening room.
I've replaced my single DD 18 with two DD 12+ in my two channel system with dramatic results. Velodyne has done their homework on the + series but I'm very biased. |
I must say I really like the improvement when I went from two
Dd-15's to 2 F-113's,BUT:
three weeks ago I home auditioned a Velodyne 1812.
The Velodyne totally took over the JL's.
The midbass punch is just incredible and I was shocked how she
left the rest of the music alone.
It's so good that I sold my other Jl's(113's) and will buy one more 1812.
Down side she's heavy and pricey 6500.But she's the best bottomend I have ever auditioned to date.
My dealer even gave me a lifetime warranty,gotta like that. |
Go with JL F212s and save money for room treatments and bass traps.Think about ease of setup and integration using a spectrum analyzer to match it to the rest of your system.
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