hi dan. i tried it (the extreme version) across my entire system (pc, ic, tube pins etc). At first things were bright and forward, but with continued use, that feature resolved and i was left with increased clarity, articulation, and speed - yet i dont think any harshness or glare was introduced. Like every other maneuver that increases these aspects, the system should be "up for" increased exposure and transparency. Overall i think well balanced systems would benefit more than those with underlying tendency towards stridency - "more is not always more." As i recall, your system with the FS (and rowland was it?) would not have this issue....
Having said all that, overall i did hear a real benefit. whether it was $149's worth or not is a case by case individual decison, but I would say yes for me. They offer a money back guarantee, so it might be worth a spin.
I have collected a few NOS tubes already: 7308 PQ /white/US, and a Holland pair. 6922 USN-CEP. 6922 PQ/white/US. Pinched waists? Don't think so. I'm not gonna spend $500 for a pair of tubes, just on sheer principle. :-) So I'm set with NOS tubes. I just wanted to try some current production tubes. As the price of NOS climbs, I thought, current production is at least worth a shot. The EH tubes didn't work at all in the FS. Nothing lost, except for a couple of dollars to send them back.
Ei Elites, is another story though. They work. And for $9.00 per tube, you might be surprised. ;-)
Thanks for the words of wisdom men. It is appreciated. :-) p
Drubin How did your EH 6922 GPs work out? I sent back the first set I got because they distorted the upper frequencies badly. Well - I got the replacement tubes today - THEY'RE WORSE! Back they go! This time for a refund. I suppose I have to cross the EH tubes off my shopping list, for good. :-(
Anyone else having EH 6922 GP problems? Just curious.
It must come as no surprise, but my system is in flux again.
I sold the First Sound, and may end up with the FS Paramount - but not 100% certain. I am using this oppty to revisit tubed linestages. Part of the deal is my new source, and the wiring upgrade on my Berning amp have exposed the limitations of the Presence Deluxe MK II. I need more transparency, a quieter background, and even more dynamic impact. As such, i'm about to go into serious debt, since we all know that you need to spend stupid $$ to significantly better the FS PDII.
Anyway, to help fund said upgrade, i've been selling someother stuff. power conditioner, power cords, and Im thinking about selling the 1960 Amperex "Pinched Waist" 6922's that I spent a small fortune to acquire (ok, I'll come out and say it - embarassingly, I spent $500 for the new set, which might have 100 hrs total on them).
If any of you are interested in this ULTIMATE tube for the FS, email me an offer. If not, i doubt I'll post a classified since tube selling is such a hassle. I would just keep them around in case I ever need another reference 6922.....
Ok Fellas....What are the signs of a tube going bad? I am getting a distortion in the upper frequencies in the right channel of my new FS Pres. Deluxe MkII. It has happened within th past two days. Certain High pitches (piano music, flute/piccolo) Cause a slight fuzziness in the sound. It also sometimes sounds as though, a single note is seperating into 2 pitches. I've ruled out the speakers - swapped them and it still does it. Ruled out the source - 2 different scources do the same thing. When I play my HT preamp (Lexicon MC8) on the same music, the distortion goes away. :-( Besides a tube, going bad, I don't know what else it could be. Do any of you fellow FS owners have any Ideas? Any thoughts would be appreciated.
Question....According to Emmanual, (and the owners manual) the break in period for an FS is 2 weeks. But alot of you fellow FS owners advise a month, before Tube and power cord experimentation. Any reason for this?
BTW - Yes the power cord was expensive. If it doesn't make a difference in my system....it will be up for sale. :-)
Thanks men. This really does feel like being a member of a club. :-) It's funny how something like audio gear can bring people from all around the country together.
I'll be patient and I'll keep you posted. BTW - I already picked up a Mini Khan power cord for after break in! :-)
Yes, as I can recall I do believe the break-in recommended from Emmanuel was 30 days of play. I personally did the 24/7 as it was the stock tubes and have a dedicated listening room, so keeping the system on at night doesn't affect others ability to sleep. The discharging of the caps does seem to help speed up the process as Emmanuel will tell you. Just remember to make sure the unit is also unplugged as well as turned off (if I remember correctly - lol has been some time). I think it may have been mostly broken in around 3 weeks or so when I started swapping stuff around, was impatient. Then I put it back to the stock power cord and such to wait that extra week, figured another few days won't hurt me. For when you are done, the unit does breathe easier and appreciated a good power cord, as well as NOS tubes take the performance to the next level. Hang in there.
paul - after the month of play, there are many tube options to consider, as has been outlined extensively here. the 7308's and 6922's are designed for looong life, the 6DJ8's somewhat less. i havent had mine long enough to weigh in on how the FS itself affects tube life.
Mine never gets warm either, not at all. some of that might be the power supply living in another box.....
I've been running my new FS for 8+ days now. It's only been shut down to discharge the caps, as Emmanuel recommends. I've noticed that this unit NEVER, becomes even slightly warm. Does this translate to being very kind to the tubes in the pre? Just curious. Thanks guys pt
Yeah, the $75 minimum was a shocker. So I ordered two sets of OA2's (in case I keep the First Sound forever) plus the EH 6922's and thereby met the minimum. But there must be another source for OA2's, and Music Direct sells the EH tubes for less than New Sensor does. I just wanted to get it over with. Emmanuel recommended the Russian OA2's that New Sensor sells on the basis of reliability (not sonics) vs. other OA2's.
I asked emmanuel about "upgraded" OA2 tubes. He kind of poo poo'd the idea. apparently its a binary thing: it works or it's out, without any real difference in the sound of different OA's. Dan makes a good point, however, need to periodically look into that puppy to make sure the OA2's are on (easier at night), they have a cool blue glow.
One of the OA2's in my FS went out, so when I ordered replacements from New Sensor yesterday, I also ordered a pair of the EH Gold Pin 6922, which Emmanuel suggested I try. Not NOS and less than $30. I forget if this tube has been discussed here. Has anyone tried it?
By the way, the only reason I knew that the OA2 went out is that I happened to peak through the side vents and did not see the blue glow on one side. Of course, it *seemed* like things weren't sounding quite right, but the preamp definitely still worked even without the functioning regulator tube.
Artg & Audiofankj - Thanks for the support. Making the decision was the hardest part of all. I just didn't want to make a mistake. I sure I didn't. :-) Still waiting for the bass to break loose. I't only been 4+ days though. :-) So the breakin continues for a month? Is that 24/7 playing all the way? Thanks guys.
Congrats Paul. Make certain to follow Emmanuel's advice ... break in from the wall and stock for 30 days... and like Art suggested, a good powercord goes a long way on this preamp! I would highly recommend an Electraglide powercord, the "entry level" Mini Khan Plus can be had used for about $500 here on the 'Gon and does wonders, improved by the Ultra Khan II, as well as the Epiphany... depends on the cash outlay you want to spend.
After that you may want to look into NOS tubes, and there are threads on various tubes and the "house" sound they give in that preamp that are really quite accurate.
All in all, do follow the 30 day break in as you will "learn" the stock sound of the preamp, which will be hard to imagine it could improve at about 25 days... but it only gets better. :)
well done Paul! I am sure you will have many audio revelations with your new toy, and welcome to tubes.
After a month or so, do look into an upgraded power cord (electraglide, shunyata elrod come to mind), do look at platform/isolation system (Aurios), and since there is so much info here to guide you, do look at NOS tubes. In the meanwhile, enjoy that thing and once agian, welcome to the club of happy FS owners.
As to ther person selling his, he may be looking to upgrade up the FS line - who knows....
Guido - :-D Got it yesterday! It arrived in good shape. Whew! As I type this it has been burning in for 31 hours. Not sure where to begin talking about it. The build quality? Unbelievable! Yes it's heavy. When you open the top, you can't help but be impressed at the absence of cricuit boards. Point to point soldering all the way! Meticulously done I might add.
The sound? The first moment I heard it (forget about waiting for a listen) The power of the unit struck me. There was a visceral quality to the music. Keep in mind, up till now I've been strictly SS. It definitely likes the Krell. :-) The sounds created were clean and clear. The Sound stage was a bit narrow in the first hour of its life, but what is to be expected at that point. Since then, stage has definitely grown. Immages are clearly taking their places in space. Highs? Beautiful already. Bass? About as good as my SS set up. With the promise of deeper and more defined bass on the way. That says alot for a 1 day old TUBE pre! I could go on. No syrupy sweet sound! Thats a good thing to me. I suppose if one wanted 'sweet', various tubes would do that trick. Only AFTER the break in though - as requested by Emmanuel :-) Natural is the word that comes to mind. Well balanced, nothing over emphasized. But the thing that actually blows me away about this whole process - almost more than the preamp itself - is the fact that today 3/25, I recieved 3 emails from Emmanuel himself. WOW! He is truly interested in me and my unit, and how it works within my system. AMAZING! He has given me tips and advice as to, what to do during break in, and what to expect during the process. I'm sure I made the right choice in this endless sea of audio gear. Quality/Performance/Support - what else can you ask for? I'm impressed by the unit and by the MAN - Emmanuel Go. Believe me - It takes ALOT to impress me. I'm happy to answer any questions to the best of my ability that you or anyone else has.
I just noticed someone is selling a FS here on Agon. Why would they want to? I would jump on it knowing what i know now. :-)
Oldpet, send Emmanuel an eMail and he will sort out the mystery. On the other hand, it would not be the first time that UPS gives a package the grand tour of the nation, before deciding to route it finally to its intended destination. Having said that, UPS is not as bad as the US postal service. Three years ago I sent a Christmas present by US mail from Austin (Tx) to Milano (Italy). It took just over three months. Reason is that prior to finally routing the package to Milan, my nephew's toys were sent all the way to Manila in the Philippines, where the box was opened, fully inspected, repackaged, then sent on its way to Milan.
relax. BTW, I was underwhelmed when i plugged my brand new unit into my system. The thing takes TIME to break in, so be patient. Also, follow Emmanuel's recommendation for breaking it in, and dont tweak it (Power cords, tubes, etc) for 1 month! all good things come to those who wait!
Hmm. Thanks Tvad. I hadn't considered that. I suppose, if Emmanuel entered the info, that would generate a tracking # automatically. 5 more days, can't wait. Hope I'm not letting my expectations be too high.
I could just scream! I was expecting delivery of the Frist Sound, yesterday 3/18. I looked up on the UPS tracking site, and lo and behold.....the "RESCHEDULED" delivery date is now 3/24! How does that happen? The unit was obviously shipped - then UPS decides to delay delivery by 6 days? Any ideas?
Sorry for sidetracking this otherwise very enjoyable thread :-)
Rayhall- they do mate very very well together. In fact, I received an email from Emmanuel last week letting me know he had heard his preamp with a Berning amp, and to his ears, it was "fabulous." To be more specific, they're both very accurate, very neutral, soundstage and image well - yet perhaps most important to me is that they are pure of timbre and really allow an emotional conection to the music. I can't say enough about the Berning. I found about about it when I discivered that Sonus Faber use it in their factory test room, where they developed their $40K Stratavari. If you read my (longwinded) virtual system info intro, you'll see the rather extensive road i travelled before falling hard for OTL's, and the Berning in particular.
I am sure that the Berning mates well with many good preamps, and have heard great things from people using it with Supratek, Joule Electra and CAT preamps. I wouldnt be able to comment on comparisons amongst them, but it's a very versatile amp. Similarly, I am positive people have mated the FS with many amps, and have corresponded with people who love theirs with Jeff Rowland, MLevinson and Clayton M100's.
Bottom line - as biased as I obviously am, i cant recommend either component more highly, and together (esp w/ NOS tubes) they are magical!
Emmanuel offered an upgrade in '03 for owners of record at that time. He was a little vague on what he did, but I think there were some grounding changes, some internal wire changes and, in my case at least, some replacement of capacitors. There is a professional review which reviews the unit after this upgrade. Here is a link to that review here: http://www.positive-feedback.com/Issue11/firstsound.htm Emmanuel said what the upgrade would do was further lower the noise floor, thus improving dynamics. I would say this upgrade was an improvement in just about every way that I could perceive except one: The unit doesn't have that pin-point imaging anymore. Instruments and voices are painted as much larger within the stage and their boundaries are more diffuse and indistinct. Otherwise, dynamics, bass extension and upper midrange smoothness were all improved and the noise floor was lowered. This was all determined before the tube change. Of course, after the tube change the F.S. made music for me like it had not done before.
Thanks, Artg, for your kind words. Now that I am sure that the F.S. is a keeper at my house even though it and the Pass amp may not be the best match, I am contemplating my options in developing a second system. As I almost certainly will keep the Pass amp, one option is to look for a second amp for such a bedroom system. One thought was to try to bring in a Berning ZH-270 for the bedroom. Any thoughts you wish to share about the sonic qualities of the Berning or its match with the First Sound beyond your other posts? Understanding that the Berning is very transparent, how does it stack up on top of the F.S.'s transparence? Down the road, I'll be looking at that option as well as bringing in another smooth solid state amp for the main system, like perhaps a Claytom M-100 or maybe trying a French amp named Lavardin. I will be listening to as much as I can and soliciting info from people who have experience with all the above and other equipment as well.
Great insightful post. I spent $$$$ getting the famed Siemens 7308's, but was ultimately was very unimpressed. well, it turned out they were late 1970's vintage, which makes a big difference. I think that a subpoint within your thoughts are that a name brand (Amperex, Siemens, Mullard) and design label (6922, 7308 6DJ8) arent enough to predict performance - the VINTAGE of the tube is KEY! As other know, the older the better....I currently have those pinched waist 1959 US-made 69ss's, and FINALLY have found audio heaven.....
I purchased a used First Sound Presence Deluxe Mk II 4.0 about 2 years ago. I had it upgraded in December 2004. In the 2 years that I have had it, I didn't do much fooling around with NOS tubes. I listened to the stock tubes and after a short time, I replaced them with Telefunken 7308's. In retrospect, I can say this is NOT a good tube to use with this linestage. As much as you could tell prior to the upgrade and prior to trying other tubes that the First Sound was a very good unit, I couldn't duplicate the sound which others seemed to be raving about. Dynamics were only average and although female vocals were extremely well presented, midrange transparence and clarity was exceptional, there was a stark, unemotional quality to the midrange which was not as musically beguiling as other preamps which I have heard or owned. Some of these problems, such as dynamics and also a lack of very deep bass extension, I had attributed to preamp/amplifier impedance mismatch between the high impedance First Sound and the low impedance Pass Aleph 4. One feature of the First Sound with the Telefunken 7308 was its just about pin-point imaging. One could easily differentiate the various instruments within the soundstage and their boundaries were extremely well-defined. The soundstage was very wide. After upgrading the unit, bass and dynamics were definitely improved significantly, but not to such a huge degree that the unit now merited the raves it received in the audio press. Having both posted to and followed threads on Audiogon about the First Sound, I decided to try a pair of Siemens NOS 6922's which I had lying around. Having no 7308's which is what are often recommended, I decided to try these 6922's. The difference was huge. Suddenly, the First Sound became the most dynamic preamp which I had ever heard. The soundstage which already had been wide became wider and taller. Midrange, which had been stark and unemotional, while not overly sweet and lush was full and musical. Vocals retained their immediacy and "in-the room" quality. Details, whether in audiophile recordings, well-recorded, current, commercial recordings or even in recordings which are 40 years old were revealed. In the right recordings these details are painted across such a wide and high soundstage stage, the dynamics are so startling in their effortlessness and explosiveness that old recordings, one's with which you are very familiar, can be like experiencing them for the first time.
I could say more about the First Sound, but since my tube rolling experience with it is limited, I'll just say that if it is not sounding right to you, keep trying and don't give up. Above all, look to the tubes as I have found that the tubes seem more capable of making a huge difference in sonic signature here than in most other preamps.
I would also have to thank Emmanuel Go. I cannot tell you the number of emails which we have exchanged in the time that I have owned the First Sound. When I would either become discouraged or otherwise occupied, he would inquire occasionally to see if anything that he had suggested or which I had tried on my own had yielded an improvement. He contacted me originally when I had bought it and had described the sound of the unit as I had heard it at that time. This is a man who is completely committed to your satisfaction as a customer, not in the sense of a slogan or corporate mantra, but really. He is truly interested to see that you get the most out of his product.
As the capabilities of his linestage continue to reveal themselves to me through tube-rolling, I can say that even though he is humble and committed to the customer's satisfaction, his design is on the cutting edge of what is out there and I finally understand what others have been raving about.
swamp walker. From what i have read, the Supratek is a very very fine preamp. I am sure that once talking about items in this caliber (i.e., all very high performing), its probably more a matter of preference, as there is no such thing as "better," IMHO.
One thing to consider is the many tube rolling options available with the FS, as well as very acessible and helpful designer in Emmanuel Go (who lives in the US)!
I see you have OTL amps; I love my First Sound with my Berning!
Guidocorona I'll be getting the standard configuration. Hoping it's here this week! When Emmanuel first emailed me he seemed genuinely excited that I would be pairing the FS with my Krell. The first review I read, (Sounstage) was based on the standard, Presence Deluxe MkII, also. If this preamp sounds like the things I've read...that'll be 'Hot' enough for me. :-) Please let us all know what the hotrodded model is like.
Oldpet, your answer was exactly what I was looking for. Will you be getting a hotrodded FS or a standard configuration? If I order one I will more than likely source a hotrod version which will maximize the audible benefits of its minimalist design.
Sorry to get off topic, but I am considering a FS pre to go with my Exemplar 3910-Joule VSN-80- Merlin VSM-MM rig. right now I am using a Supratek Syrah. any comments from yuse guys ?
Guidocorona Before I answer you, I just wanted to thank you for asking Emmanuel about the Hot Rod First Sound units. :-)
I decided to work my way up the price ladder. Keeping in mind the caveat of DC leakage.
The first stop along the way was the Tube Audio Designs "TAD-150" By Paul Gzrybek at Bizzy Bee. Paul is a gem to work with. We shipped the preamp back and forth 3 times for various tweaking. The first TAD-150 was completely stock. After the first go round the unit then became one of Paul's "signature" preamps. The 'stock' pre simply didn't have enough weight or depth for my taste. Especially in the bass dept. When the preamp was tweaked into the 'signature' series, the bass was greatly improved but, still just not enough weight for me. Keep in mind this preamp only costs $700! I would say that for many people this preamp could stop their search, right then and there. Needles to say. I ended up sending it back to Paul for my refund.
Next up was the SAS 10A by Steve Sammet. ($1995) A really outstanding Preamp. Dual mono in its construction etc. But, it was noisy in my system. The bass was just a small bit light from what I am accustomed to. I think if it had been quiet however, I could have stayed with it. But i thought - why compromise at this point? Back it went for the refund.
Both the TAD-150 and the SAS 10A did a beautiful job with vocals and staging.
Both Steve and Paul were easy to work with. They were fast with getting my refund back to me. Their business model is one I wish more Agon dealers would adopt - REFUND if you are not happy with their product.
So here I am, awaiting the arrival of hopefuly my last preamp - EVER! :-) This "trial" is MUCH more risky though, as I am NOT able to return it for a refund. :-( On the positive side - I think I've read only one, mildly negative comment, from someone who auditioned a F.S. and didn't find it to be his cup of tea. I basically purchased this pre based on reviews (professional) and threads I've read.
If this isn't the one - then a very new F.S. Presence Deluxe II will be on the 'GoN for a true tube lover.
Wish me luck. sorry for the long winded answer. :-)
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