oldpet tell us more about your system. There are a bunch of highly satisfied FS oweners here - we want to know more about your rig.
Also, allow the thing to break in at east 3 weks before coming to any conclusions - AND REMEMBER IT INVERTS PHASE, so you need to account for that. |
an old thread that i would like to add to:
Stock: no sluch, but a bit cold to my ear, not as transparent as others.
Siemens 7308 Gold Pins (Emmanuel's favorite - i got from stewart at santuary of sound)): awesome imaging and soundstage - very quiet and refined. Maybe a bit analytical if im listening to female vocals. My brain loved these the most, my heart the least
Phillips Miniwatt pearl cryo's 6DJ8 (from www.tubeworld.com) 1959 german made: the opposite of the Siemens: warm and smooth as can be. Smaller soundstage, just a bot rplled off and less transparent than the Siemens, but the smoothness and roundness of the notes, it's emotional impact (esp at night with a merlot listening to vocals) is really unbelievable; handily eats the other tubes for dinner on the right matl.... These are what i keep coming back to, though clearly not as "hi-fi sounding" and not as good at rock or complex jazz. My heart loved these the most, my brain the least.
Finally Amperex PQ 6922 white lattereing D getter from early 1960's (got here on AG from Sam): a cross bwetwen the Simens 7308 and the 6DJ8's. These are my all-around winners, though my heart still falls hard for the 6DJ8's warmth, and depending on maoood and material, I'd prefer the reference quiet and refined sound of the Siemens.
If anything, im learning that tube rolling is like everything else in life - there are no absolutes, just trade-offs. |
tvad - mine are same as yours. PQ white lettering, nt pinched waist. I'd like to also get some pinch waists, but have yet to see any for sale..... |
To calrify again - my PQ 6922's are the "D getter" version - early 1960's production. |
ok - so two more simple tweak considerations for First Sound owners. Maybe this has been covered already, but it bears repeating, i think...
1) Aurios isolation/decoupling bearings - clean up and solidify the sound very nicely. Emmanuel recommended them, and as usual, he is right on the money....
2) straight into the wall. I found my Hydra robbed a bit of the inner sparkle and life. |
oldpet try brendan at tubeworld, or andy at vintage tube services. |
Id be lying if I said I could always hear the difference, but on some, the bass is off. On other recordings, i cant tell. Mostly i bring it to your attention because emmanuel really really feels strongly about it.... |
relax. BTW, I was underwhelmed when i plugged my brand new unit into my system. The thing takes TIME to break in, so be patient. Also, follow Emmanuel's recommendation for breaking it in, and dont tweak it (Power cords, tubes, etc) for 1 month! all good things come to those who wait! |
Two updates:
FIM Model 88 Outlet. Emmanuel recommended it over the more expensive wattgate I had, and he nailed it. This thin gis a must-have for this preamp. Quiet as I'll get out, smooth as silk, yest highly resolving/transparent. This one doesn't rob dunamicsd or over-smooth things - it's very neutral. At $60, you can NOT go wrong. Trust me, this was pretty impressive, not subtle....
next up: early 1960's US-made pinched waist Amperex 6922's. I returend the "Siemens 7308 gold pins" when i discovered (while trying to resell them here) that they were manufactured in 1980. Yeouch! they really didnt hold a candle to the Amperex D-getter 6922's or Phillips Miniwatt 1959/1960 (aka Bugle Boy)tubes I had on hand, no matter how much I tried to like their "transparent" sound - they sucked - and now I know why. Boys and Girls: it's a jungle out there. make sure you know a priori what year your tubes were made before you buy....
On that note, Andy at Vintage Tube Services is 100% bone fide honest and waaaay more knowledgable than most out there. |
Grant - you are indeed astute! |
Hi Paul - I agree that's a very nice, highly resolving system you've put together, and i also agree that some tube magic would do you good. The FS is a perfect match, IMHO, mostly becuase it's very neutral and honest - does all those audiophile things (soundstage, imaging, dynamics, etc) very well - but more important, it gives an emotional connection to music that's I've never heard with any SS preamp. There are plenty of "musical" tubed preamps, and plenty that exceed in transparency, soundstage etc - but the FS exceeds in BOTH.
I received the US made 1959 Amperex 'Pinched Waist' 6922's today, and Im still letting them settle in, but right off the bat, they're truly amazing! Exceptionally quiet and neutral. Notes are very fleshed out. its pretty amazing. More on that later, as they settle in. Suffice it to say they are my new (final) reference, though im keeping the cryo'd 1959 6DJ8 Miniwatts (aka Bugle Boys). I sold the white letter d-getter 6922's no another FS owner, btw.
Anyway, Paul, we're all glad to chip in our persectives (no matter how biased) - so let us know how your journey develops! |
Emmanuel has just released a "supplement" for operating recommendations. I have pasted these here, for your reference:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Achieving Optimum Sonic Performance with a First Sound:
This guide has been compiled through various listening tests, experiences from the field and feedback from customers. We strongly urge you to read this guide thoroughly and apply the guidelines presented in a thorough manner. It is our intent for you to experience the maximum benefit a First Sound Linestage can offer to your system.
Tubes
Use the original factory tubes for a period of two weeks. This is very important to follow and cannot be stressed strongly enough. After this period, you may change the triode tubes if you wish. This procedure allows you to experience your First Sound the way we have designed it. The triode tubes play a very important role in the overall performance of your unit. Changing the triode tubes to NOS may not always result in improved performance and can actually have an adverse effect. Using the stock
tubes for a period of two weeks provides a form of guarantee against NOS tubes that may actually degrade the performance of your unit.
Periodically check the OA2 tubes to ensure they are working. The First Sound unit will function even if one or both OA2 tubes are not working, though with diminished performance.
Tube Dampers. If you have tube dampers, we would recommend to use the First Sound without the tube dampers for a period of a week or so. After which put on your favorite tube dampers. This will allow you to determine if the tube dampers benefit your system or not.
Polarity of the speaker leads
Reverse the polarity of speaker lead. Discussed on page 3 of the manual under the heading Set up. The issue of reversing the polarity of the speaker cables is very very important. So important that we would disown a First Sound unit if we heard it with the incorrect polarity. Having the polarity correct allows the music to flow with ease and harmony. There is a connection between you and the music, a bond. If the polarity is not right, there is a disconnect, a separation, a veil. The music seems to be lethargic. Like
a track and field runner who has lead weights at their ankles. No bounce, no spring, no life. Attending a symphony and feeling the atmosphere of the venue; the excitement of the audience as the music unfolds with its drama, tension and flow; vs watching on a very good plasma HDTV. Quite a difference. Manually changing the phase by reversing the polarity of the speaker cables is the ideal and most effective method to use. In listening tests, it is easier to see the difference if one would play a couple of songs in one polarity and then a couple of songs in another polarity and then switch back again. Using different cds from various labels is advised. If the phase is changed via the cd player or a D/A converter, we have a very hard time noting a difference. We do not have an explanation for this. This is the reason we advise to change the phase manually.
Inputs and Outputs
Use the CD input for your main source component. The CD input has a different wire than the rest of the other inputs. This results in an enhanced performance through this input.
Use the Output 1 for your outputs to your main amplifier. This is the most direct output and provides the maximum performance.
Electricity
Plug the unit directly to the a.c. wall outlet. Do not use any a.c. line conditioners or devices. If you have such a.c. devices in your system, try using the First Sound unit without the a.c. devices for a period of two weeks. Then proceed with the use of the a.c. device along with the First Sound unit. This procedure will allow you to determine if the addition of an a.c. device is beneficial to the overall sonic performance of the system.
Use the stock power cords. If you have aftermarket power cord, use the stock power cords for a period of two weeks. Then proceed to use your aftermarket power cords. This procedure will allow you to determine if the substitution of an after market power cord is beneficial to the overall sonic performance of the system.
Hi End a.c. receptacles. We have found that hi-end a.c. receptacles actually enhance or degrade the overall performance of the system. We advise you to take careful consideration about these products.
Set Up
Shorting plugs. Do not use any shorting rca plugs or rca caps (used as shield for EMI and RFI) on the back of the unit. These degrade the sound when used with the First Sound.
External Power Supply Placement. If you are placing the external power supply directly on the carpet, we have noticed an improvement if a wooden chopping/cutting board was placed underneath the external power supply.
Attention to shelves. We have found out that certain materials used for shelves does not work well with First Sound. In particular, acrylic shelves.
Isolation Devices. Do not use any of these devices under the main unit or the external power supply. If you do have these devices, listen to your First Sound without any of these devices for the first two weeks. Then proceed to use them first under the main unit, then under the power supply. This procedure will allow you to determine if the addition of an isolation device is beneficial to the overall sonic
performance of the system.
Break In
Do not use any CD Break-in Disc or Break-in Device. Use natural music only. We have found that certain break in cds can actually have a detrimental effect on the performance of the unit.
The break in period is about two weeks of 24 hour constant use with music going through the unit.
Break in is aided by discharging the capacitors two or three times a day during this period. Discharging the capacitors is discussed on page two of the operating manual.
Note: Remember to unplug the a.c. power cord from the a.c. wall socket and from the external power supply before depressing the Discharge Button !
After pressing the Discharge Button for 3-5 minutes, release the button and let the unit settle for about 5 minutes. Then reconnect the power cord and turn the unit on.
During the break in period, while the unit is being played, set the attenuator at the different volume settings if possible. |
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ok. I'm finally done messin with NOS tubes. Man was that tiring. I must have tried 5 different tube sets before settling down on 2 - each time losing some $$.
Final all around winner: 1959 Amperex PQ "Pinched Waist" D-getter 6922 (US made). Smooth as silk, highly accurtae, with just a smidgeon of bloom. Notes have more defined and controlled beginning, middle and end. Delicate and forceful depending on material. a true champion. Example, the inner harmonics of Kind of Blue, at the opnening of track 2 "Freddy Freeloader" - where the trumpet and sax are playing similar notes - I've never before appreciated the lovely separation between them, yet it wasnt an artificial highligh, no - the tones and resonance of each individual instrument was nicely laid out, side by side, as they were intended to, as they would sound if you were there.... I wont even mention how much I paid for these.
Second Place: 1959 pearl cryo'd Phillips Miniwatt german made 6DJ8 (aka bugle boy). Creamy smooth and lustful presence. On some recordings (e.g., Lucinda Williams) the midrange presence and rock solid images are simply jaw-dropping. Music just flows. Not as clean, nt as refined, not as all around a winner, but on some material, it beats the PW 6922's. |
well, they dont say bugle noy on them. they say Phillips Miniwatt, but as i understand it, they are the same as the "bugle boy." I think they are steel pin d-getters... |
swamp walker. From what i have read, the Supratek is a very very fine preamp. I am sure that once talking about items in this caliber (i.e., all very high performing), its probably more a matter of preference, as there is no such thing as "better," IMHO.
One thing to consider is the many tube rolling options available with the FS, as well as very acessible and helpful designer in Emmanuel Go (who lives in the US)!
I see you have OTL amps; I love my First Sound with my Berning! |
Great insightful post. I spent $$$$ getting the famed Siemens 7308's, but was ultimately was very unimpressed. well, it turned out they were late 1970's vintage, which makes a big difference. I think that a subpoint within your thoughts are that a name brand (Amperex, Siemens, Mullard) and design label (6922, 7308 6DJ8) arent enough to predict performance - the VINTAGE of the tube is KEY! As other know, the older the better....I currently have those pinched waist 1959 US-made 69ss's, and FINALLY have found audio heaven..... |
Rayhall- they do mate very very well together. In fact, I received an email from Emmanuel last week letting me know he had heard his preamp with a Berning amp, and to his ears, it was "fabulous." To be more specific, they're both very accurate, very neutral, soundstage and image well - yet perhaps most important to me is that they are pure of timbre and really allow an emotional conection to the music. I can't say enough about the Berning. I found about about it when I discivered that Sonus Faber use it in their factory test room, where they developed their $40K Stratavari. If you read my (longwinded) virtual system info intro, you'll see the rather extensive road i travelled before falling hard for OTL's, and the Berning in particular.
I am sure that the Berning mates well with many good preamps, and have heard great things from people using it with Supratek, Joule Electra and CAT preamps. I wouldnt be able to comment on comparisons amongst them, but it's a very versatile amp. Similarly, I am positive people have mated the FS with many amps, and have corresponded with people who love theirs with Jeff Rowland, MLevinson and Clayton M100's.
Bottom line - as biased as I obviously am, i cant recommend either component more highly, and together (esp w/ NOS tubes) they are magical! |
well done Paul! I am sure you will have many audio revelations with your new toy, and welcome to tubes.
After a month or so, do look into an upgraded power cord (electraglide, shunyata elrod come to mind), do look at platform/isolation system (Aurios), and since there is so much info here to guide you, do look at NOS tubes. In the meanwhile, enjoy that thing and once agian, welcome to the club of happy FS owners.
As to ther person selling his, he may be looking to upgrade up the FS line - who knows.... |
I asked emmanuel about "upgraded" OA2 tubes. He kind of poo poo'd the idea. apparently its a binary thing: it works or it's out, without any real difference in the sound of different OA's. Dan makes a good point, however, need to periodically look into that puppy to make sure the OA2's are on (easier at night), they have a cool blue glow. |
paul - after the month of play, there are many tube options to consider, as has been outlined extensively here. the 7308's and 6922's are designed for looong life, the 6DJ8's somewhat less. i havent had mine long enough to weigh in on how the FS itself affects tube life.
Mine never gets warm either, not at all. some of that might be the power supply living in another box..... |
weird. never had this happen, but those tubes cant be bad. do you have a swap tube to try in its place - justy to see if it goes away?
Otherwise, you should call emmanuel |
well, well, well, here's a gem for the taking....
http://cls.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/cls.pl?preatube&1118799988 |
It must come as no surprise, but my system is in flux again.
I sold the First Sound, and may end up with the FS Paramount - but not 100% certain. I am using this oppty to revisit tubed linestages. Part of the deal is my new source, and the wiring upgrade on my Berning amp have exposed the limitations of the Presence Deluxe MK II. I need more transparency, a quieter background, and even more dynamic impact. As such, i'm about to go into serious debt, since we all know that you need to spend stupid $$ to significantly better the FS PDII.
Anyway, to help fund said upgrade, i've been selling someother stuff. power conditioner, power cords, and Im thinking about selling the 1960 Amperex "Pinched Waist" 6922's that I spent a small fortune to acquire (ok, I'll come out and say it - embarassingly, I spent $500 for the new set, which might have 100 hrs total on them).
If any of you are interested in this ULTIMATE tube for the FS, email me an offer. If not, i doubt I'll post a classified since tube selling is such a hassle. I would just keep them around in case I ever need another reference 6922..... |
well, anyone interested in the authentic 1960 pinched waist 6922's? |
ditto what tvad said - I also had the white label PQ's 6922's and they were fabulous in the FS - and at a "reasonable" price to boot! |
hi dan. i tried it (the extreme version) across my entire system (pc, ic, tube pins etc). At first things were bright and forward, but with continued use, that feature resolved and i was left with increased clarity, articulation, and speed - yet i dont think any harshness or glare was introduced. Like every other maneuver that increases these aspects, the system should be "up for" increased exposure and transparency. Overall i think well balanced systems would benefit more than those with underlying tendency towards stridency - "more is not always more." As i recall, your system with the FS (and rowland was it?) would not have this issue....
Having said all that, overall i did hear a real benefit. whether it was $149's worth or not is a case by case individual decison, but I would say yes for me. They offer a money back guarantee, so it might be worth a spin. |
