Tube Preamps...I'm sold

Just a quick point. There are many people on this thread that are describing the sound of various tubed preamps.
Big mistake. I recognize many of the posters and understand
they are not inexperienced or shy about spending big bucks to improve the sound of their systems. A good tubed products (competently designed using good components) sound will be determined by the tubes selcted. In other words, the Wyetech poster described as the most SS sounding tubed preamp he has heard, is what he heard with a certain tubeset. I guarantee you there is a tubeset for that preamp that will move the sound to the lushest tubiest sounding preamp you have heard. I know you all understand that EVERYTHING in the signal path is crucial to the out come at the speakers. This is why so many pissing contests start on these threads. Maybe it was the cabling that caused the preamp to sound so SS. The tubeset did have a huge influence on the outcome. I recently purchased a Chinese preamp (Ming DA 2A3) for about $1200 including shipping. I replaced all the stock tubes at a cost greater than the cost of the preamp. I will place this preamp in a head to head with anything out there. It will not be imbarassed. Any of the sonic characteristics posters here have ascribed to the different preamps mentioned can all be turned 180 degrees with tube selection and or cable selection. The only necessary parameter for a good tubed product is transparency. It is an empty glass and the sound will depend on the quality of the wine added (tube selection).
If you are into tubed products and haven't done extensive tube rolling, you should stick to SS because you aren't maximizing your gears potential. I would be surprised if the Shindo pre couldn't be improved upon with tube rolling.
The outcome at the speakers in five different systems will
be very different. Therefore there is potential to improve by rolling the tubes to suit your system and personal taste. Tubes are hands on gear, if you are not comfortable with that, then stick with solid state.

Bart

Hi Atmasphere,

Thanks for the post. Point taken. My experience has been with extesive tube rolling in three different tube preamps.
The CAT Ult MK2, VTL Ultimate and Ming DA 2A3. I have read many threads (particularly on the CAT) describing the
sound. Many were using the stock tubes and described the sound as leaning toward analytical with great dynamics and frequency extension. I an agreeing with you here. Regardless of the tubes rolled the CAT will maintain those two characteristics (dynamics and extension). But the analytical character can be modified to overly lush depending on tube selection. I now select amps and preamps primarily by the tubes they use(12ax7's, at's, au's etc.).
I like products that use several (three or four) different tube families (not any tube families as some are better than others). This allows the greatest range of tuning.
The tube choices are not arbitrary. The Chinese pre I am using currently uses 2A3's (rectification), 6922's (input),
6SN7's (output I think), EL34 (voltage regulation I think).
I have an idea of the quality of some tube families and regard all four of these as top shelf. My point is that the selection of these tubes will allow this pre to out perform a pre that uses all 12AX7's for instance (not universally, generally). I am meandering a bit here but to get back on point, we are essentially in agreement.
The design and the tube selection contribute to the outcome. I think you feel that the design factors have more weight while I believe the tube selection, generally,
is more determinant of the outcome. The point I am trying to make to the posters on this thread is that when talking about the "sound" of a tubed product to remeber that the vast majority of these are chameleon like in that they change character based on tube selection. The SS product on the other hand is a constant. Comparing the same tubed product with different tubesets will produce very different results.

Bart

Jmcgrogan2,

There is an audiophile in Canada that used the ARC Ref3 with his CAT JL2 and loved it. I recently heard from him.
He is now using a Shindo (I think their top model, can't remember the name) that he says is in a different league from the ARC. The rest of his system is very good. If I could remeber his Agon moniker I would include it in this post. His name is Orrin Seether. Maybe he will chime in.

Bart