Tube Amps With Good Bass Qualities


I have been reading over posts about tube amps and their bass qualities. I understand that for the most part, that a ss amp with have an edge in bass qualities compared to a tubed amp. Damping factor, etc. But I can give up a little of that edge for what I enjoy in the midrange qualities of a tubed amp. So my question is, what tube power amps have you heard that have good bass qualities?  Raven, Quicksilver, Mac, etc.?   Let's give a price point. 5K or under. What do you think?
jwlaff

Showing 5 responses by atmasphere

We had an "amp try out fest" one Sunday a while back at friends house that had a pair of JBL Synthesis 1400 Array's,
https://www.stereophile.com/content/jbl-synthesis-1400-array-bg-loudspeaker-measurements
His mate came over also with his OTL 60watters
**Any** 60 watt OTL will be uncomfortable with a load like that (see JA's comments in the review at the link). This is a great example of how *not* to do it- you always want a tube amp to play loads for which it is intended!
By the way what are the woofer's in your speakers? Are your enclosures vented?
Yes. The drivers are dual TAD 1602s (Fo of 21Hz), one forward firing and the other downfiring. Flat to 20Hz is no problem at all :)
how to match a tube amp to a speaker, is one to find what the lowest dip in the speaker measurement and make sure the amp can over come that dip rather easily ? 
@oem-wheels   In a nutshell, yes.

all you have to do is play
Paula Cole -  Tiger

Sheesh. I can play that thing and it shakes the building. Easy. Just design the amp so it can't drain the power supply. Its not that hard- and its not rocket science.

Yeah- I can feel my guts moving, and the cuffs of my pants. It has nothing to do with tubes or transistors and everything to do with how well the amp can drive the speaker.
From the perspective of someone who listens to a lot of electronica, i have yet to hear a valve amp that can bring the fear factor in the sub bass.
I listen to a lot of electronia too. I started in 1972 when I heard Tangerine Dream on the local radio station! Since then ambient and electronia has always been an important part of my LP collection. Infinity Project put out an amazing LP called 'Mystical Experiences' that has some nice bass tracks, the second LP by Global Communication is great in that department and of course the usual suspects like Massive Attack, Future Sound of London, Forest Swords and so on- I'm always in search of the next best bass drop (but with some substance in the music, not just 'unce unce unce unce' for an entire record side...
My speakers go to 20 Hz no worries- and I've yet to hear a solid state amp that makes the bass as well. So much has to do with the amplifier/speaker interface though as I pointed out above. If you want a tube amp to play bass properly, then it should not be put at a disadvantage! A lot of people seem to want to make a tube amp fall flat on its face by subjecting it to a load for which it was never intended. This IMO is simply a waste of time and money- you want a tube amp to play bass then make sure you've done everything to allow it to do so and you will be rewarded.
Yes that's for sure also, the main one though is the amp, it has to control the speakers movements, wild and varying loads, high and low impedances, and not be upset by any back emf from the speaker either.
None of this is a requirement to getting good neutral bass. This is not to say that the relationship between the amp and speaker isn't important, but its a simple fact that no speaker needs a great deal of damping, and many don't need much at all. What's more important is to make sure the amp isn't struggling to drive the speaker!
So why do you think so many manufacturers make low impedance loudspeakers? 16 ohm speakers are a rarity. With ESLs you don't have much choice and they all pretty much do the same thing as capacitive loads. But, dynamic speakers could be designed with higher impedance. Maybe it is a marketing problem?
I was looking at specs and I noted the ARC Ref 750 had a slew rate of 20 volts/msec. Your amp is 600 volts/msec. Why is yours so much faster and how does that effect the sound.
Next silly question. If you were using two 8 ohm drivers in a subwoofer would you hook them up parallel for 4 ohms or series for 16 ohms and why?
@mijostyn Quite simply the market is dominated by solid state amps. Four ohms is often used to make the speaker seem a little easier to drive (higher 'sensitivity'). But if you do the math you find out very quickly that sensitivity and efficiency are two different things- and with tubes, efficiency is a far more important spec. This is because compared to solid state, tube power is expensive. So you need to make the best use of it that you can. In the old days speaker designers did exactly that- that is why older speakers are often 16 ohms and usually more efficient.

(A side note, more efficient speakers are more expensive to build, in some cases by a factor of 10 (the woofers in my speakers cost about $2000 each on that account) so by going to lower efficiency a speaker manufacture can make more money. I'm of the opinion that chasing the almighty dollar has a lot to do with so many 4 ohm speakers out there. Quite often when changes happen in audio, **its not so much for performance as it is profit.** To give you some examples: when the industry went from field coils to permanent magnets it was fueled by cost savings; from tubes to transistors it was the same (no output transformer, no filament circuit); from high efficiency to low efficiency (if the amp manufacturers were able to make that much more money, why shouldn't the speaker manufacturers), from analog to digital (everything about digital is less expensive than analog from recording to playback)...)


While ESLs are indeed capacitive but unless they are self powered like some of the old Acoustats, they all have a matching transformer which steps up the voltage from the amp to drive the panels themselves. So the designer of the ESL can set the turns ratio and thus the impedance range of the speaker. This is how Martin Logan gets 4 ohms in the bass while a Sound Lab is 30 ohms.


We get the speed in the output section from having no output transformer. As a result, the output section has a lot of bandwidth- it can go up to 30MHz no problem (many years ago when we first noticed how high the bandwidth was, we tried using it with a CB radio to see if it would boost the output of the walkie talkie and the amp was easily able to do it)! So we limit the bandwidth in the voltage amplifier section mostly to prevent damage to tweeters from RFI.

If it were me, I would put two woofers in series rather than parallel (they will act the same way in the box regardless) because I would want the speaker to make the most of the tube amp connected to them that they can. I've heard many people say the amp can't control the woofers as well this way but that's poppycock- what's really happening is solid state amps make less power into 16 ohms (half of what they will do into 8 ohms). Now you can't get away with this if the woofers are dissimilar- they will tend to color each other. But if they are identical woofers this works quite well. I've heard a good number of speakers that are wired this way and they work great.


Now here's an interesting tidbit about that- when you wire the speakers in parallel the sensitivity goes up by 3dB as opposed to a single 8 ohm driver. When you wire them in series the sensitivity goes **down** by 3dB, meaning that the 16 ohm version is 6dB lower sensitivity than the 4 ohm version! But the actual efficiency in either array, or with just a single woofer is **exactly the same.** This is really confusing not just for regular people but also for speaker designers. I've run into many that think the efficiency goes up when a pair of speakers are put in parallel. But what is happening there is that they are confusing 'sensitivity' (2.83 volts at 1 meter) with efficiency (1 watt/1 meter). At 8 ohms the two are the same; into 4 ohms 2.83 volts works out to 2 watts hence the 3 dB increase; into 16 ohms 2.83 volts is 1/2 watt, hence the 3dB decrease. But if you apply 1 watt to the array whether its 4, 8 or 16 ohms if the woofers used are all the same the way it works out into 4 ohms (with 1 watt, not 2.83 volts) is 1/2 watt is dissipated by each driver and the same is true at 16 ohms, or if a single driver is used and 8 ohms it dissipates the entire watt.


There are a lot of designers that don't get this bit! I'd point one or two out to you but I really don't want them mad at me :)
@jwlaff Here are some things to look for to get good bass out of a tube amp:
1) if the amp has output transformers, look for low frequency bandwidth to 5Hz or less. OTLs can go down lower; what's important here is to have no phase shift at 20Hz and above- that's a requirement for good impact. To do that the amp has to be full power to 2Hz. But this might not be that important if your speakers don't also go to 20Hz.  Amps that are only specced to 20Hz might not be so nice in the bass. If they really start to roll at 20Hz you can get phase shift artifact right up to 200Hz.

2) Its a really good idea to avoid loudspeakers that are 4 ohms, and especially speakers that are 4 ohms in the bass while being 8 ohms in the mids and highs. So this will included a lot of speakers with dual woofer arrays. On the 4 ohm tap most output transformers are less efficient (more of the amplifier power is being converted to heat in the output transformer) so you get a little less power, and quite often less low frequency bandwidth as opposed to the 8 or 16 ohm tap (the latter being the best; 16 ohms is the way to go with tubes).  IOW, to get the most out of your amplifier dollar, avoid low impedances (this applies to all amplifiers, not just turbes).

3) Most speakers (but not all by any means) are meant to be 'voltage driven'. This means to get flat frequency response the amp has to behave as a voltage source i.e. it can put out the same voltage into any load. No tube amp can really do that (neither can solid state) but they can be quite effective at this even with 4 ohm loads. What is needed in a tube amp to do this is a fair amount of negative feedback. The problem with this is that feedback introduces distortion of its own (while otherwise suppressing distortion and reducing output impedance). This distortion is audible as brightness and harshness; these qualities are not why people buy tube amps- they want smoothness and detail instead.
To get that many tube amp designers use other means to obtain linearity (triodes, class A, etc.) thus allowing them to run the amp without any feedback at all. This works really well, but the amp will not behave as a voltage source. Despite that, you can still get very neutral response but you do have to be more careful about speaker/amplifier compatibility. In high end audio, this is a well-known problem regardless, so this is an easy thing to do- the manufacturer of the amplifier can give you some good suggestions. For more on this issue see: http://www.atma-sphere.com/Resources/Paradigms_in_Amplifier_Design.php
If you do this right you can get outstanding bass. I have yet to hear a solid state amp that can keep up with the bass I get at home; keeping in mind as FWIW sort of thing that I've played string bass in orchestras and bands since junior high (not that such really qualifies me as a bass expert, just that in my audio system I have to get the bass right to be satisfied). But my amplifiers have full power right down to 2Hz and my speakers are 16 ohms in the bass, go to 20Hz and are meant for tube amps.

Another way of putting this is quite simply regardless of the amplifier you choose (tube, solid state or class D) you really don't want that amplifier to be working hard (it will make more distortion and be less musical) so there's no point in trying to make a tube amp drive a difficult load. You'll get substandard reproduction and you'll go through tubes faster. Solid state amps might be able to drive low impedances better, but they too make more distortion in doing so, and the whole point of high end audio is to make the music sound as real as possible. So make sure your amp is driving an easy load (**especially in the bass**) and you will be rewarded.