Tube Amp, Preamp upgrades -- what did you do that improved your units?

@hi2alex2 Yes, all upgrades are completed. Amp and preamp sound improved to my ears.

@tvad  Good points. Regarding (1), if the alteration is not preferred, then I can put the older caps back in, right?  Regarding (2) noted. I think that the QS gear may really be my main rig for at least 5 years and likely much longer. Upgrading it with beneficial effect would solidify the choice. Otherwise, I suppose, I'd be willing to lose some resale value.

@jjss49 Your warning is appreciated. I assume that I might hedge my bets about the risk taken with the modications if I did a simpler upgrade that would be easier to reverse. Because I don't know electrical engineering I don't know where the line between relatively safe vs. risky upgrades are.

@sns Thanks for the list!

@sns 
Thanks. Helpful advice regarding replacement parts and possible breakages.
"What is the sound quality you're looking for?" -- a good question. I'm not sure but I've heard that more air and detail are possible. Sort of like the question "Why would you want to try better beef?" Not easy to answer without experience. But you're right to look to other users.

@dekay I chose this pre because I didn't want a remote volume, so not going to alter that.

@decooney I have found an expert here in Colorado. No worries about his work.

@russ69  I suppose I could call Mike, but might he just defend his amp/preamp as built? I can understand that, but perhaps not objective enough?

@knotscott  -- I've been rolling tubes, too, and appreciate the KT66 mention. Want to try that; love the KT77s.

@jjss49  I would not do this myself. I'd pay to have it done and pay to have it reversed. Just like a vasectomy.

@soniccsc1 I just installed 5 independent dedicated 20 amp circuits. So, I'm good there.
@invalid — yes, solid state rectifiers
@millercarbon Thank you for your suggestions! You sound much more comfortable doing the work than me! I'm going to hire someone who's done this a bunch. As for it being "a balancing act figuring out what to replace, what to spend, what to get and how to get it to fit. It is not just "oh I'll get Deulund". You will see."
I agree. If I was going to just resort to, "Oh I'll get Dueland," then this post wouldn't exist, n'est-ce pas?

Anyone ever change binding posts? 

@jperry 

Before changing the insides, put it on Nordost SortKones or Grand Prix Audio footers.

Are you saying to do this because it might erase the desire to do other tweaks or because it is important as a preliminary step? I realize it's easier than making a change to the amp, but why "before"? Thank you.

Thanks folks for the suggestions for foam panels, equalizers, rugs, new speakers, etc. I'm sure there's a wine to drink along with the listening, too. Still, I'm really asking a very narrow question here.

That said, it is a free country and typing is therapeutic.

Thanks, SNS. Spaciousness…the final frontier. Yes! I will likely do only caps. Looking at used market, changing caps seems minimally controversial to buyers. That said, I'm looking on keeping these amps for quite a while.

@tvad  Thanks for the suggestion. Worth exploring!

@grannyring Thanks for weighing in. Much appreciated. I've got some nice closeups of both the Line Stage and the Monoblock 60s on my system page, now:

https://systems.audiogon.com/systems/9064/edit

I'm a noobie. I wonder what more experienced people think of the stock caps which came with my amp. My feelings won't be hurt and I know this is very affordable quality gear. But, getting down to the quality of the parts, what do you see in these photos?

Thank you, all.

Tubes are, i had thought, already a given. I’m thinking of alterations to the machine.

Also, learned this: the Orange Drop caps are 90 cents (.90) a piece at Tube Depot. 
https://tubedepot.com/products/orange-drop-715-series-022f-600v?utm_source=google&utm_medium=cpc&adpos=&scid=scplpCP-OD715-022-600V&sc_intid=CP-OD715-022-600V&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIsIa6_8yH9AIVeQytBh0nbQ4EEAQYBCABEgICr_D_BwE

@grannyring Thank you. This is all for the preamp. One thing -- the amp is not that old -- it was probably built in 2020 or 2019. Would you still replace those 4 - 47uf 500v filter caps? It sounds like you'd only do it if it was an older model. Thoughts?

Also, did I miss your thoughts on the mono block amps? 

@tomic601 I suppose it’s all relative. My amp is a 2020 model so I’m not sure how those orange drops stack up, relatively, *today.*

I'm not sure all techs will take on custom work, many frown on customer spec'd parts substitution. Don't want the liability if you're not happy with sound and/or don't trust you're substitutions are correct for circuit.

I'll need to confer with him. Doing caps with exact value matches and not much else would be a decent upgrade and would minimize risk. The preamppot seems very doable We'll find a happy consensus, I'm sure.

@grannyring rannyring Thanks for all the thought you’re putting into this question. I’m in Denver, so I’ll go with a good local tech on this.

A couple follow ups if you don’t mind:

First, about the amp: you wrote,

It also has 2 white QS branded caps that are an odd value .27 uf.  Most all caps come in .22uf. Don’t just replace with .22uf.  You want to match the .27uf value. Both Audience XO and Sonicap Gen 1 from Sonic Craft have .22uf and .047uf value caps that can be combined in parallel for the .27uf value. They are both not expensive.

You mention the odd value .27 uF. That struck me, too. 

QUESTION: But if  the combination you mention (Audience XO and Sonicap Gen 1) to equal that value is as you put it, “not expensive,” would the upgrade be worth the surgery?  You did say that “Both the Audience XOs and Sonicaps are also a nice step up” — so perhaps you’ve addressed this concern in your later post?

Second, when you say,

I would replace with the Mundorf caps. They will improve sonics a little. Better bass and a touch more clarity. Not expensive and easy to do since the preamp is already disassembled. I would add one bypass film cap to each Mundorf electrolytic. A bypass cap is simply one cap soldered in parallel. Use a .22 uf to .47uf Audience XO or Sonicap Gen 1.

QUESTION: …are you talking about the black caps in the preamp, again? You had suggested that I “replace the [black] 4 - 47uf 500v filter caps with Mundorf M-Lytic HV 500V 2-Lead Single Section Axial cap from Parts Connextion.” So,  are you now amending this to reaffirm that suggestion but adding another cap along with it?

I’m sorry to not be following easily. We're got two different units here (preamp and amp) and various caps and parts. I'm compiling a table to order correctly. I need to instruct the tech who will be doing the work and so if I’m not clear on it, he won’t know what I need.   

@grannyring Thank you. I'll communicate with my tech on this. The additional bypass cap is not something I anticipated and we'll discuss. 

@jjss49 9

(a) I am committed to keeping this gear.

(b) I would look to a local tech, highly recommended. I wouldn't trust myself to do it anymore than I would trust myself to pick out carpeting on my wife's behalf!

Agree about the ship/ship cost and risk concern.

Good point about the re-sale; Tvad was saying that earlier. My sense is that this unit has really, really good fundamentals and I'd likely be nipping an upgrade bug early if I just take it to a better level, now. Judgement call. I'd rather experiment with speakers and Dacs, etc., down the road, knowing that my tube gear was batting .450

Violating the warranty is a concern, but there's only a little bit more than a year left on it. I could wait, but a caps change seems low risk. I suppose I'm tired of being risk-averse. Could it be the age we live in?

I hear you about the conservatism — I think we're alike. A couple of things are swinging me in this direction:

* Experienced opinion: QS owners who have done these mods are unequivocal in praising the results
* Reality check: This QS gear is not on the level of, say, others — Atmasphere; lots of room to improve; a quick look at some of the parts costs quickly confirms
* Plan B: My solid state can carry me pretty well, if necessary (assuming my preamp is ok)
* Settling the issue: I think it's in my head to do this and I have the time to enjoy the process right now.

All your caveats make a lot of sense — thank you for writing them out.

Sometimes I approach these questions as if they were serious medical procedures; they're not! This is a hobby and I'm trying to slide into the greater ease I see in other hobbyists with, well, trying sh*t!

@jbhiller

I would simply start with the coupling caps and output caps (typically located right before the lines running to RCA outputs). If it’s a preamp you are upgrading, you can match your output cap better to your amp if they are of different brands. There’s a nice calculator on the VCap website for this purpose.

Thanks for weighing in. Help me understand -- you say the "output caps" are "typically located right before the lines running to RCA outputs." My amp only has RCA inputs. I’m looking at a picture of the inside (at my system page, hilde45 ) and I’m trying to determine which caps you mean.

As for the preamp caps, I AM intending to modify BOTH the preamp and the amp. Your advice helps me because I’m leaning toward Mundorf for the amp and then could do VCAPs on the preamp.

Thanks and I'm glad to see some agreement about the non-oil Mundorf SG's.
It's confusing enough to choose between brands, let alone there being such differences within a brand.
And, as opposed to tubes, once these pups are soldered in it will be a harder call to reverse them.

@sns  Thanks! It's like speakers -- many good ones out there, can only try so many!

I am looking especially among QS folks, with some eye to what they like in an amp. That said, they'll have different rooms, different speakers, etc. It's a crapshoot. But a better quality part will, whatever its character, offer more of some basics, whichever particular subset they happen to be.

@larryi
I do appreciate your warnings and thanks for weighing in.

There is no such thing as universally better parts—the right part is a matter of both particular design and taste of the listener.

Didn’t mean to claim that.

That means trial and error and a willingness to accept that the majority of changes will be for the worse (the original builder having already chosen something that works reasonably well, your somewhat random change is likely to be positive). It is not necessarily the case that parts that are popular will be to your liking.

I totally agree. The idea that it would be *necessarily the case* that popular parts will be to my liking would be a very bad bet, indeed. It’s not the *popularity* of the parts, by itself, that makes it a good bet to try these changes. It’s the quality of the parts.

Sometimes the right parts are very specific to the way the product is used.

This makes sense to me. And yet the reason I’m likely to move ahead with this change is that
(a) while it’s possible that the fairly inexpensive caps in this amp are the "right" parts it seems plausible they’re there because it suits the design *and* also meets the economics of pricing and availability for these units;
(b) other QS owners of this gear report benefits from these changes;
(c) owners of other tube gear report benefits from their upgrades;
(d) it’s all reversible for not that much money.

If you were making great lasagna with great sauce (QS transformers, wiring), but with modest quality meat and pasta (some of the parts being considered for swap out, here) and someone suggested trying the same recipe with much better ingredients, it would be hard to resist taking things to the next level. It’s possible that the recipe completely relied on the modesty of some of the ingredients, but my guess is that better ingredients would improve things even further.

@yogiboy I have found the Orange drop caps online for less than $5. I would replace them with much better caps. The other strange value cap 27uF seems to be Solen.
@decooney has done the homework on these caps. I have not seen reports that they are special or from France or whatever, but perhaps there’s been variation over the years.

It looks like there are plenty of people who have upgraded to much better caps in Quicksilver amps. Couple finds:
  https://db.audioasylum.com/mhtml/m.html?forum=amp&n=156482&highlight=quicksilver+caps&se...

https://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649264974-quicksilver-tube-mini-monoblocks-with-latest-upgraded-...

@aricaudio 
Thanks for the comments on the Odams. I'm planning on just the preamp for them. Will likely avoid the Miflex.

In the end, not all components will produce the same results with the same upgrades and the overall system voicing will dictate what sounds best. Look at it as a chef's spices, and you'll realize not every recipe tastes good with the same blend.

So much (all?) in this hobby depends on the specifics involved, from source to room. It's all semi-guessing.

My premise is simple: try better parts that other owners of the same gear have found beneficial and reverse it if it doesn't work out.

Very enjoyable, civil, and educative thread. Really appreciate your experience, your cautions, your calculations about benefits/detriments, and your descriptions of the many factors which make it hard to claim too much certainty about a lot of this.

I started this thread on the edge of a diving board, and now I feel confident to yell "Cannonball!"

I'll try to report back down the road.

@wsphohn I appreciate your opinion. I’m not swayed. This gear, as Grannyring and decooney have pointed out, is clearly built to a price point. It is not in the league of better Curl or Berning gear. A $4 Orange cap as being intentionally part of an amp design? That does not strike me as plausible an explanation as the price point explanation. The preamp came with $13 tubes in it. Should I have left them alone? (I realize tubes may be a different thing...but still.)

The testimony of other owners of this gear is that it very much advances the gear into another level up -- so, rather than spending thousands more for another preamp and amp, I’ll spend hundreds. Everything is reversible if I don’t like it.

@terryakhan Things may get better. May get worse. I suppose that this is a level of risk I’m willing to take. That’s what this hobby means, for me at least.

I have benefited from other people who have had experience with asking them about this question. It is denied that anything needs to be improved and there is definitely a lack of sympathy for the question itself. 
 

the room is not the issue. The thread covers these things already. 

@axo0oxa Thanks for your caution. It creates some indeterminacy to do multiple caps at once, but if it works, it works big. That's a gamble, and if there weren't other quicksilver owners testifying to the benefits, it would be perhaps too much. But there are and so it's not. I'll let folks know. My mind is made up. 

FYI, the QS model is Mono 60.

The upgrades:

• 2 Quicksilver White Caps (.27uf 400 VDC 1543R) were replaced with (a) a Mundorf 2uF 1000Vdc MCap® Supreme EVO SilverGold Black SESG and (b) a parallel “bypass” that added an Audience/Auricap cap (0.047uF 400Vdc XO Series).
• and, 
• 2 Orange drop caps were replaced with 2 Mundorf Cap 0.22uF 1000Vdc MCap® Supreme EVO SilverGold Black SESG.

The sound improved.