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Tube amp for rock? Newb Questions

Ive been plowing though the posts here and thought this seems like a place I could find some more help.

Anyway, I listen to rock about 80% of the time. Anything from very heavy metal to 80s rock. Some blues, some softer rock, and Pink Floyd, I dont mind jazz or big band or female vocalists, but im off point....mostly rock. My room is about 12X22.

Im upgrading a very mainstream set of components that ive just sort of lived with for years:
Yamaha CDC 905 Changer
JVC 518VBK AV Reciever
Kenwood JL-680 3-Way, 12"main, 92db, 70w, Circa 1989 Speakers

Going to a hi-fi shop of any kind is just not realistic on a regular basis(very remote) so im leaning heavily on the forums and reviews online to gauge a direction.

So far ive tried a Cambridge Azur 340A and now currently demoing a 540A (both along with a set of AudioQuest ICs). Honestly the ICs made a huge leap with my original setup..I was impressed. Anyway, the CA amps are very musical, more imaged and more detailed. However my initial impression is these are not rock amps. Negatives are the guitars are now more "in the back" so to speak, more harshness/treble/brightness, and also a more general laid back sense, almost like the corners of big rock and roll hits are rounded off if that makes sense.

Am I on track that these amps arent rock amps? Or is it possible the speakers are now more exposed for their faults? Ditto the CD player?

To take this further, I feel whats most associated with "rock" or "heavy metal" are punch, power, volume and bass. I agree....to a point. Ill take killer midrange over heavy bass, and what good are punch, power and volume without feel, subtleties and tone?

As a side note, ive been playing guitar for 20+ years, when talking guitar amps, IMO there is nothing to discuss, tube is FAR superior to SS. I particularly like EL84 juiced amps, smooth, warm amd sweet. Is there a correlation with tube audio?

I dont want to start the "what to upgrade first" debate, ive read all the many many opinions....:) Im open to speakers or source, but right now looking at amps(with my system im thinking just pick one and get started...bad idea?)

I know some feel SS is the way to go for a rock amp, but currently im assuming based on my experiences so far and guitar tastes im going to like tube amps. I certainly could be wrong.

I like the talk about the Manley Stingray. Ive read everything every search engine will find about it and talked to Manley as well as some dealers. Any opinions on it for my wants/need? What about the Prologue 2 or the Jolidas? Are then in the same ball park as the Stingray or are we talking a step down?

For speakers ive looked at and considering(based on $$) the Athena F2.2s, Paradigm Espirits, and most others in this price range, but also found some Dali Towers that are slightly more(may get a chance to hear them in a couple of weeks). Based on my future plans/$/listening habits, any recommendations?

I hope tihs is semi-clear, I appreciate any thoughts, Thanks!
zamdrang

Showing 6 responses by atmasphere

atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
12,074 posts
 
Hi Zamdrang, if you want punch and dynamics without brightness, consider that you will have to work with an amplifier that is zero feedback. Amps with feedback have enhanced high order odd harmonics, which the ear uses as loudness cues. This works great for a guitar that has to 'cut through the mix', but lousy when you want to listen to a music gestalt. Zero feedback amplifiers come in all power levels, but I would also consider speakers that have higher efficiency. Three decibels is a small change in volume to our ears, but means that the amp has to make twice as much power. So if your speakers are high efficiency your amplifier will be easier to find.

I play in two bands (myspace.com/thunderboltpagoda and myspace.com/salubriousinvertebrae); I listen to a lot of material that would probably drive a lot of audiophiles out of the room... guilty pleasures, so to speak. IOW I want bass extension, impact, detail- you know- the good stuff.

I should also point out that an amp that is genuinely good for rock should also be good for anything else- amps don't really care what signal gets pumped through them and an amp that is genuinely high fidelity will be able to play anything you through at it. You have already found a few that don't inspire; that should tell you something...
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
12,074 posts
 
Hi Zamdrang, I'll put it this way:

If you are investing in a tube amplifier, any tube amplifier, that investment dollar will be best served by a speaker that is at least 8 ohms rather than 4, all other things being equal. Sixteen ohms can often be a revelation.

Four ohms became common with the advent of the transistor, before that 16 ohms was common. A lot of tube amps have 4 ohm capabilities, but in 99 and 44/100ths percent of the time, the 4 ohm operation is compromised by lack of bandwidth, lower power and higher distortion (read:lack of transparency) than operation at higher impedances.

Tube amplifier power is also harder to make; there is a direct benefit from speaker efficiency. Even 3 db more will mean that you amp need make only half the power for the same sound pressure.

As an example the Coincident will be easier to drive and play louder; it might actually sound better than the Dali not because it actually is (and I don't know if it is or isn't) but simply because it is intended for tube operation and the amp can now perform that much better.

You might want to read this paper:

http://www.atma-sphere.com/papers/paradigm_paper2.html

It will help you understand a lot of the controversy that exists between tubes/transistors objectivist/subjectivist and the like.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
12,074 posts
 
Zamdrang, there is a lot of difference between tube amp designs. To get a more dynamic quality (often audiophiles *mean* 'distortion' when they use the word 'dynamic' so I am clarifying that point by insisting that I mean *actual* dynamics), the less feedback used, the less compression the amp will exhibit. The problem is that often distortion increases with decreased feedback, so to really work right the amp has to have low amounts of distortion *without* feedback.

This is possible, but it is unusual. Many tube amp manufacturers want to get their amps to work on the same speakers that transistors do, and so add larger amounts of feedback- this pushes them closer to transistor sound.

I feel that if it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its probably a duck. What I mean is, if we are going to use tubes, let's embrace that and then see what is possible if we let go of trying to make a tube amp do what transistors do. The result is a different world.

BTW, check out Aesma Daeva (myspace.com/aesmadaeva)... a favorite of mine.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
12,074 posts
 
I use the Classic Audio Reproductions T-3. The speaker is 8 ohms (newer versions are 16), goes from an honest 20Hz to about 40KHz, and is 97 db 1 watt/1 meter.

I can shake the building with our 60 watt amp. Check out:

http://www.atma-sphere.com/awards/bya/index.html

for a discography of bass reference recordings.

While having full bass extension, the speaker is also finely detailed, images beautifully and is easy to set up. With 60 watts, its almost impossible to clip the amp in my room (17'x22', 9' ceiling).

The difference between 89 db and 97 db is 8 db; that means to do the same thing on an 89 db speaker will take about 400 watts. Many amps, especially ones with feedback and operating in some mode other than class A, will strain at higher power levels. To get punch out of them without strain (harshness) you need efficiency. To get the distortion down (which enhances transparency/detail) you need to keep the speaker impedance up as the amp will make less distortion.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
12,074 posts
 
I really don't agree that metal is in general badly recorded! Despite being a manufacturer, and despite audiophiles generally using light jazz with female vocals, the fact of the matter is that metal faces its own set of issues in the recording- ones that are only solved by proper technique.

A good pressing of Black Sabbath's second album will bring most high end audio systems to their knees in seconds. The recording is spectacular.
atmasphere's avatar
atmasphere
12,074 posts
 
I had the LP on hand too, along with a few other metal faves. The system we had in the room had no upper limits as far as sound pressures were concerned :) although the bass was best up close, which was odd. Every room has its issues...
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