I'll agree that benign speaker impedance curves makes it easier to find an amp that is likely to sound really good with said speakers.
But lower and more challenging impedance curves are more the norm these days, and with just a little care, one can find many amps that are good matches. Class D amp technology pushes this truth even further than before, and makes smaller more efficient packages that perform well possible.
SO choose your approach wisely and listen to the results and there are multiple paths to happiness.
There are always so many types of distortion at play in any reproduction, that focusing on any particular type does not tell the whole story nor add much value IMHO. |
"Im shocked at how much tube monoblocks go for new."
Its a reasonable response I think.
Especially in the case of low power tube amps like SETs costing 5 digits. These use only a few tubes, and often claim to keep circuitry simple towards the end of good sound. Granted, high quality parts cost more and there is some intellectual value associated with design, but nothing hugely innovative going on here.
OF course, more tube power = more tubes, so understandable how cost goes up in that case.
If you buy into the concept that a couple of watts can be made better than if more, then that helps with the justification. But then it often requires very expensive and large speakers to complete the deal for TAS.
I tend to think you get a better deal with quantity, including watts, and those additional watts are not as detrimental as some purists might portray them to be on the grand scale of all the things that go into good sound, especially when modern SS amps like Class Ds are more efficient and cost effective than ever before. |
"You can see in the specs of any amplifier (solid
state, class D or tube) that the distortion is indeed higher
driving a lower impedance load. "
That is true, but still all relative, and 4 ohms does not
mean many amps stop performing well.
Needless to say, the amp has to be up to the task. Most
good quality SS amps these days are quite capable of
performing well into 4 ohms these days it seems. Lower
than that becomes more of an issue perhaps, but better to
listen and determine for ones self the whole story rather
than focus on any one technical scenario. 4 ohm loads are
quite common these days and for good design reasons, not by
error or ommission. There are many valid ways to achieve
excellent results.
Tube amps are a different beast that work best in different
scenarios and subject to their own unique distortion
characteristics, so comparing SS and tube amp distortions is
not apples/apples and of limite.d value IMHO |
My understanding is low impedance in treble region does not present nearly as much of a challenge as same in bass in that exponentially less power is needed for flat treble response. I think that is the main reason why tube amps can do well with those. |
Clipping is always the devil to avoid when chosing an amp for speakers. Effects of clipping start as subtle and increase to major. Whatever the speakers, be sure to chose an amp that is well beyond being up to the task. Most speaker vendors quote minimum or recommended amp power rating that are suitable to get decent results for most, but not suited to get the best results possible, which is what audiophiles seek. Result is many underpowered systems out there over the years and that is valid fuel for the argument towards speakers that present an easy load.
High efficiency/easy load speakers are a viable solution to the problem, but no the only one, especially these days. Amp technology has progressed and offers major improvement in efficiency these days as well. Monster heavy and big power amps ala traditional Krell, etc. are no longer the only robust option. Class D amps are lightweight, small, efficient and offer more power for the $ than ever.
SO do not disregard modern innovations in amplifier technology when assessing options. THere are more good and affordable ones out there than ever, especially when TCO is considered.
Also, use of powered subs to offload the heavy work in the bass is another very practical tool to choose. WHen powered subs are used (most use Class D amps to very good effect here) a lot of the issues with matching speakers to amps that exist otherwise tend to go away in that the main amp is asked to do much less to drive the speakers optimally than otherwise.
Also when playing vinyl, always make sure rumble and subsonic noise in herent in many phono setups is managed properly and under control. Otherwise, most of the amps headroom will be used to produce noise. High efficiency/easy load speakers might be a band aid in this case, but not the solution. |
YEs, but realize that tube amps in general will distort even more than SS amps into 4 ohms, so if 4 ohms is part of teh puzzle, the answer is clear.
Any good amp, SS or otherwise can drive an easy load easier.
SO you have to look at all the pieces of each puzzle together in the right way , not take one piece from one puzzle and try to insert it into the the other and then blame it for not working.
Likewise, there is always good, better and best in any case/scenario. Its important to understand impedance and phase related issues in order to assemble the right pieces. Then you can assess system/puzzle A versus B however one likes, but better to look at the overall results than the relative deficiencies or strengths of any one element of design. |
I don't know what designers intended for certain, but I suspect SS amps all the way. ML is pretty mainstream and tube amps and speakers that work best with them is way more of a niche market.
The best ML demos I have heard was off a Krell integrated amp in one case and a similar Classe amp on another occasion.
I have never seen or heard them with a tube amp. |
An amp that can double down to half an ohm gotta be the bomb! |
"Hence, based on what Al explained, using a tube amp which has a "high'ish" output impedance will likely result in sonic coloration to some degree."
Yep. The specs give you guidelines but cannot answer what sounds best in each case. The key part is "to some degree". The question is always which colorations and to what degree. The answer will be different likely in each persons case though the specs might indicate certain approaches to yield the best results overall. |
Its funny how there are always two ways to look at good sound.
1) technical
2) practical/case by case
Nothing guarantees each perspective will resulting the same choices/solution. Why should they each case is different even if for no other reason than room acoustics and how each person hears. Would we expect two people to choose the exact same pair of shoes? No. But we all kinda know what makes some shoes better than others. That's the technical perspective and the only one of global value. But then , the shoe gotta fit.... |
"In otherwords it will do the classic thing that can happen with low current or high output impedance tube amps "behave like a fixed tone control" instead of being flat into all loads."
That's a very interesting analogy!
I suppose, its a question of who is in charge, ie which component is going to dictate the parameters of the overall system that works best.
It makes sense that from the perspective of the amplifier or specifically the designer of a tube amplifier, they want their baby to be the one in charge.
The speaker designer trying to make a compact quality speaker with extended flat bass response that most might be willing to put in their rooms has a different perspective. The price paid in this case is more demand on the amplifier to help deliver the desired results.
Two different paradigms/ways of approaching things as Ralph likes to point out, each with unique strengths, weaknesses, and tradeoffs. Its good to be able to have the choice. |
Someone should sign up to do a "paradigm" shootout, ie the best of voltage versus the best of power paradigms. Of course, finding an unbiased doer or doers for something like this could be the hardest part.
I would volunteer someday, perhaps after I retire eventually, although I doubt I will have the financial resources needed to put into two complete and alternate SOTA systems that could both truly push things to their limits. :-) |
I'm seeing mostly some well defended differences in perspective here. |
Again two different perspectives on how to get a good amp/speaker match.
To me the point is zeros are the best solution for ML with many tube amps. If you match up amp and speakers directly, zeros not needed.
Perhaps an "adaptor" would be a better technical term for what the zeros are. They would make for some fairly pricy "band aids", though the argument could be made that an adapter is a technical form of "band aid". Its mostly just semantics, some more agitating to some than others. |
If one looks at the Zeros as a type of adapter, its not that complicated to determine the value case by case, which will vary widely.
Some cases they will add value, but only when an adapter is what is needed to make two devices not designed to work well together work well together.
But clearly if starting from scratch, in most cases, one will be better off NOT using an adapter, especially one that costs big bucks in order to bridge a gap.
FRom the perspective of an amplifier vendor whose product plays by a different set of rules than most, there are surely many good applications of the adapter.
However, if speaker maker and amp maker play by the same set of rules, there should be no need for an adapter if they dd their job well. IF they didn't, they will probably go out of business and no adapter will help save them. |
Where did ML ever pick up that crazy paradigm?
I guess it's always easier to put the burden on the other guy :-) That's a pretty safe bet no matter which way one thinks technically. |
..unless there is nobody out there willing to play along..... |
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Do what the maker recommends.
It'll all work. It's just a matter of how well. The maker should know best what works best. Once you've done that, then you are in a position to try something different and see how that works in comparison. You never quite know what will sound best to someone, however its much easier to determine what will perform best from a technical perspective. Optimal performance is usually the best place to start. Where one ends up after that might still be different, but at least you know you started out on the right road.
If you need an adaptor, impedance or otherwise in order to make things work well, you probably did not start out on the right road. |
