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Tube Amp for Magnepan 3.6 - Rogue Zeus/VTL-MB450

Hey Audiogoners,

First post to A-gon and I need your advice! I've researched this site extensively, read thousands of your threads, and purchased good product through you folks. So here goes.....

Bought a used pair of Maggie 3.6Rs -absolutely love them! [Chose over ML Odyssey, Ascent i (also liked), Maggie 1.6] They're accompanied w/Supernal tweeters and an AMC B1-20 sub. I'm upgrading my stack from ss to tubes. Caught the addiction! Having listened to tubes while auditioning e-stats/planars, I've concluded that they just make the sound more "real life" -at least for my taste (go to alot of live shows). I just love that sound!

Also picked up a used VTL 2.5 tube pre-amp along with the 3.6s. Had no prior knowledge of VTL. The 2.5 presents a beautiful large deep soundstage (3D), brings everything to life, sounds tubey -not overly tubey. I've heard some pre-amps I like better (Viva Linea), but at a much higher price point.

So, I want to upgrade two things -Amp and CD

Amp:

Having had such good experience with VTL, I'm tempted to pick up a used pair of VTL-MB450s (at half list), never having heard them. Also considering Rogue Zeus (used)-listened through modest set of electronics/speakers. The Zeus is so powerful that it actually carried the entire system. Bass is tremendous -best I've heard in a tube amp so far. Could have been a tad more articulate in the mid/highs, and didn't present a deep soundstage, but I'm tending to attribute these limitations to the electronics/speakers that accompanied the setup. My sense is that the Zeus could power my 3.6s very well, and drive them to their potential. Zeus is also very well made. Liked the warm standby switchable mode as well as built-in tube biasing. Knocks -it's So friggin' heavy (even more of a monster in real life), & pumps out a ton of heat. Definitely an Uber-amp.

Is there anyone out there in Audiogondom who has listened to both the Rogue Zeus AND the VTL-MB450, and can give me a real life comparison???.....

Other products I've auditioned ...to give a sense of my listening tastes (please DO NOT BE OFFENDED as I'm not trying to knock a brand of gear you may own; it's all good):

ASL Hurricanes - listened opposite Zeus, w/better electronics/speakers. Found them to be more articulate (tubey) in the mids (real nice), lean highs, definitely light bass (compared to Zeus).

Jolida 3000 monos - sounded decent w/3.6s. Tad syrupy. Definitely not the bass slam/quickness of Zeus. Good sound none the less.

Sim Audio Moon W-5 (I know it's ss, but comes highly recommended with the 3.6s) - listened while auditioning Metronome tube CD (w/Moon stack, Triangles). The whole setup disappointed me. The sound was flat, not dimensional. Maybe it was the setup. I'm still stumped.

Can't find Wolcotts in my area. Haven't auditioned VAC.

So, VTL-450 or Rogue Zeus? And why?

Second question, CD.

Tubes?

I really like the Shanling 200 sound, but have heard consistently horrible stories (from 3 of 4 dealers) about reliability. Heard they've addressed firmware issues, but still leary about dropping bucks on a unit with double digit failure rate.

Others...
Metronome CDv2 demo - just sounded flat an uninspiring (maybe it was the system).
Jolida 100 modified - sounded good; lively, crisp, warm but not too tubey.
AMC DB6 modified (with an AMC DAC9 modified) - decent, but not as articulate or sweet as Shanling, not as crisp as Jolida, and didn't seem all that well built. I do like the DAC9 by itself though.
Eastern Electric Mini Max -good for the money, well built, but simply can't compare to Shanling sound.
Audio Research top loader -didn't enjoy w/Krell stack
Musical Fidelity 308 -beautiful crisp highs; maybe should audition w/tube stack.
Wadia 861, McCormick ($3K) -just didn't enjoy them

So, I'm stuck. I like the Shanling sound, but not its Word Of Mouth reliability.

Any other suggestions? Next on my audition list is the Cary 308t. Remember, I'm looking for that warm, lively, beautifully finished sound -but not too analytical.

Sim Audio Moon Eclipe? Rega Jupiter? Other?

Thank you folks.
angelsmtn

Showing 4 responses by tireguy

tireguy
1,964 posts
 
I am a little confused about one thing-
They're accompanied w/Supernal tweeters and an AMC B1-20 sub.
Are you using a sub AND a "super tweeter"? If so and your getting "good" results something is seriously wrong.

I don't think either tube amp will offer enough power to really open the speaker up. A VTL750 would be more like the minimum VTL I would use. The problem with these big tube amps is they are expensive to purchase and maintain.

As far as CD players go I am not sure what your looking for, however, in your price range(or what I am guessing is your price range) I would look into the Resolution Audio Opus.
tireguy
1,964 posts
 
Hey Justin- I know its shocking but with a speaker that technically is 84dB efficiency you real need LOTS of power- the more the better(as long as its clean). When I went from 450 high current watts to 600 high current watts the soundstage gained depth, and grew on each side substantially not to mention better bass response and many other benefits. I've heard other who have had the exact same experience with these speakers- if you can afford 1000+ watts of clean amplification go for it!
tireguy
1,964 posts
 
Hello Aroc- Sadly I know 200wpc(even high quality tube watts) will really not do justice to the large magnepans. Its so bad I have a friend with 20.1's who's seriously thinking of getting another classe omicron for 2400 watts per channel or something insane like that. He has used the same amps that I am using and then went back to his omicron(800 or 900 watts in dual mono configuration) and the results were amazing- he has friends that confirm his crazy ideas so I have no choice but to believe him, and the fact it matches my experiences. I have tried BAT VK-120 mono's and while its not 200 watts, it was horrible! The midrange was so involving and full of body, but everything else was a large compromise. With mods and lots of power I am getting flat response to 28hz, with his mods and more power and 20.1's he is below or at 20hz. The other thing people complain about is dynamics with magnepans and while this is the biggest problem with the speaker it becomes less o an issue with gobs of power, they really come to life. Its a shame most people stop with "lower" power amps because they are never really experiencing what the speakers are capable of. If I could deal with the heat and expense of a Wotan I am sure it would be down right sublime!
tireguy
1,964 posts
 
I have heard all of the players you mention. The Lector is good for the money, but for similar $$ audio aero prima will offer up 85+% the performance of the audio aero capitole mkII(which I used to own). While the Capitole MKII is hard to beat in a one box configuration(in particular for the money and what it is capable of doing) for a wee bit more the Emm labs puts it to shame and is well worth the price of admission if its with in reach. I prefer the sound of the Shanling over the cary and oracle. I have not heard about much for problems with the shanling, however for similar $ I would look more into the prima or lector. If you can squeeze a little more out of your budget Resolution Audio Opus is good, a bit more cash Audio Aero Capitole mkII and even a little more Emm Labs DCC2/CDSD combo. The lector, shanling, and capitole mkII have tube outputs the prima may, however, I am not positive.
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